NGT48 Assault Case

Discussion in 'General NGT48 Discussion' started by Cisalpine88, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Reveen

    Reveen Under Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Location:
    Sunnyvale Trailer Park
    I hear that next they're sending Ayakani to Kashmir to diplomatically sort out the Indo-Pakistan tension, that should end well :yikes:
     
    • Creative Creative x 6
    • Like Like x 2
    • Old Old x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. wlerin

    wlerin Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oshimen:
    Taniguchi Megu
    The sample mails are always old. I don't know exactly how often they change them, but some people on Twitter remember seeing this same sample message last year. (Have to see if I can dig that tweet up again.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Dirkkun

    Dirkkun Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    March 3
    http://40298ch.com/test/read.cgi/karakoro/1548413013/187

    • Article from the Daily talking about Yokohama Yui, Mukaichi Mion, and the riot around the incident.
    • Article in Zaikei Shinbun about the power harassment in Maho's case.
    • Hagiri Runa mobile mail sent a notice of discontinuation and she's gone from the list of mail distribution members.
    • A twitter theory as to why Runa was originally suspended was a subject of discussion.
    • Someone noticed there was paid comments from a "Inaoka Ryunosuke" (aka Inapooh's real name) in the bunshun live of Jan 12.
     
    • Informative Informative x 9
  4. ysa73

    ysa73 Future Girls

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Oshimen:
    Rissen Airi
    http://chikakb.ldblog.jp/archives/54962507.html

    reported in the newspaper: the issue was raised in the prefecural assamebly meeting on 21/2.
    1.JPG
    2.JPG
    3.JPG
    governor's reply: we will listen to what the third-party committee has to say.
    4.JPG

    it's two weeks ago i probably overlooked it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. ethereallimbo

    ethereallimbo Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Oh hey, some random Twitter statistics. I tried looking at all the NGT48 members, and who have gradually decreased in followers.

    Ogino Yuka (peak: January 18) 139,876 -> 135,632 (3.03%)
    Tano Ayaka (peak: January 22) 29,758 -> 28,499 (4.23%)
    Nishigata Marina (peak: January 21) 28,810 -> 27,729 (3.75%)
    Yamada Noe (peak: January 31) 28,029 -> 27,216 (2.90%)
    Kato Minami (peak: January 21) 43,044 -> 42,594 (1.05%)
    Sato Anju (peak: January 30) 18,031 -> 17,906 (0.69%)

    Past week or two Rika/Maho have been slowly losing followers too but not significant/long enough to tell if it's a persistent trend or not. Even though she's not necessarily directly related you can tell Ogiyuka took the biggest image hit from this whole situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 3
  6. Dirkkun

    Dirkkun Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    http://40298ch.com/test/read.cgi/karakoro/1548413013/191

    • Myjitsu article about Niigata Friend, criticizing the way they talked about the assault.
    • East Sport headline about the AKB Kouhaku being put on hold.
    • Nara Miharu used an old two-shot of Miyajima and Gatanee in her morning mobame.
    • Ogiyuka trended first on twipple, not in a good way.
    • A lawyer supporting Maho was unsuccessfully accused (online) of trying to incite a net lynching by a random person.
    • Talks of possibility that Ops would fire Hagiri and shift the blame to her. @Cisalpine88 tweets about the 2nd gens and how unlikely it is they're involved.
    March 5
    http://40298ch.com/test/read.cgi/karakoro/1548413013/194
    • GQ Japan article (https://twitter.com/qc_bb/status/1102769312547258370) and Weezy article.
    • Riko mobame where she says she felt refreshed after talking to her family and crying.
    • An article about the third party committee came out in Toyo Keizai, an economy magazine.

    Edit: March 5
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 6
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    Twitter:
    speranzom
    And because I had enough time on my hands today, here is a translation of the full article. It's already long enough in the original Japanese form, but the translation is even longer, so be warned. Then again, for those who want to hear once again an expert opinion on the matter (the interviewed person is a veteran lawyer) it will prove to be an useful read, picking apart some questionable aspects of AKS's choices.
    As usual it seems that the general consensus on all levels is that these things are nothing more than a farce set up by the top brass to save their faces when they can't do it with their own means (or they fucked up royally in every previous attempt, such as in this case).

    https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/268506
    The inscrutability of the third-party committees as seen in the cases of NGT, Ministry of Labour, and Japan University
    The "last resort" always brought out once a scandal happens

    Last year, with scandals happening one after another, the society had been in the middle of what is a "third-party committee" boom. In the case of the Ministry of Labour, the special overseeing commission -- a third-party committee set up as a result of the data reckoning fraud issue -- faced suspicions about its neutrality, and even at the end of a second examination, they failed to acknowledge any systematic cover-up. The Ministry of Labour received heavy criticism, and issues regarding the third-party committee were also pointed out along with it.

    It is not only about the Ministry of Labour. Be it the data manipulation issue of the Kobe Steel company, the hazardous tackle controversy of the Japan University Football Club, the entrance exams fraud at the Tokyo Medical University, in any scandals that caused a clamor in the public, a third-party committee had been set up -- one might as well say without exception. It's safe to say it has established itself as the de-facto standard not only among the private enterprises, but also in government institutions, universities, regular schools, all the way to the sports world, as a response to organization scandals in the Japanese society.

    This trend has recently made its way even into the world of idols. On December 2018, Yamaguchi Maho (23) of NGT48, an idol group active in Niigata, had two men attempting to break into her own house, in an incident in which she suffered physical violence (later, the two men didn't undergo prosecution). On top of that, the victim, Yamaguchi-san herself, then went on to express her apology at the theater performance for the controversy that ensued, in a situation that defied any understanding, and which received so much attention as to be even picked up by foreign media.

    Even here, the story is that the management side didn't proceed to take proper measures about the issue in the beginnings, which led to the assault incident coming out to the public in the form of Yamaguchi-san "denouncing" it through social media. Afterwards, the person in charge at the NGT48 management, theater manager Imamura Etsuro, and the handling by the management company, AKS, came to be regarded as questionable by people at large.

    What is the definition of a third-party committee

    On January 14, the management company AKS announced on the official NGT48 site about the removal (effectively a position reshuffling) of Imamura, and the appointment of new managers, a main one and a vice. At the same time, a declaration was made about the establishment of a third-party committee: "We'll proceed to conduct examinations by a third-party committee, consisting of specialists such a lawyers and industry experts, in order to look into the facts of today's case, to see if there has been any inappropriate actions by the members, even without being necessarily illegal"

    Let's take a moment here to understand what a "third-party committee" is. To put it plainly, on those occasions when a scandal breaks out inside of a business firm or any other organization, this is an external team tasked by the company to carry out an exhaustive inspection on the matter. Normally, it is composed of over 3 people, between lawyers and other experts. Once there, in a position that is independent from the requesting company, neutral and objective, they would then conduct a research on the facts and causes thereof, propose preventive measures to avoid a recurrence, and sum up the content inside of a report document.

    In addition, by making a public statement, it would allow the stakeholders (stockholders, customers, employees, trade partners, creditors, local residents, and anyone whose interests are at stake) and the public to come to terms with it, restoring the credibility of the affected company and increasing its chances of continuing business, or so is the intended model.

    As for the third-party committee related to the NGT48 assault case, on February 1, after over 2 weeks had passed since then, its line-up was finaly announced on NGT48's official website by a joint communication of chief director Yoshinari Natsuko and Matsumura Takumi, director and responsible staff of the management. This was to be composed of three people, lawyers Iwasaki Akira (Iwasaki Law Office) as chairman, and Kiuchi Masaya (Akasakamori no Ki Comprehensive Law Office) and Takayama Kozue (Shinwa Comprehensive Law Office) as committee members. As a little reference information, a legal resume of every committee member was also attached.

    https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/268506?page=2
    In reality, the informations released from AKS regarding this issue have been extremely scarce so far. As a result of this, flooding the Internet was not only what came out from mass media, but also speculations and simple aspersions from fans, thus bringing about a state of serious confusions. Looking at the messages written frequently on social media, some can't help letting out also lamentations that "the feelings of NGT48 members are hurt to a great degree, and no full care is provided about that" (from a person connected to a big entertainment agency).

    Even so, while putting hopes on the formation of such committee, which itself is supposed to represent a first step toward the verification and the solution of the issue, we had waited for a press conference to held by the three people selected, but no such presentation was ever issued. The writer of this article later tried to give a telephone call to the Iwasaki Law Office, which the committee chairman runs, requesting for an interview, but the office employee that replied gave us back the following reply.

    "We can't say anything concerning the case in question. For any availability for interviews and everything else, AKS is serving as our own contact helpdesk for us. So please refer to them."

    Since, as it seems, the decision on whether to accept interviews is left completely to the requesting company AKS, this represents a grave problem in terms of "independence" of the committee, which is requested by the "Guideline for third-party committees about corporate misconduct" (compiled in 2010, and representing the widespread basics when it comes to conducting examinations using the third-party committee model), and which they should have comformed to when setting up such committees.

    About this, we asked for an opinion from lawyer Kubori Hideaki (Hibiya Park Law Office), member of the Japanese Bank's assembly for rules compliance, one of the central figures in formulating the guidelines for the Japanese Federation of Lawyers, with a history as the chairperson of third-party committees in many cases of malpractice (i.e. chairman of the NHK "Third-party committee on the issue of the employee's stock trading")

    Do not utilize the Japanese Federation of Lawyers to easily give yourself a sense of authority!

    -- What do you think of the idea of the third-party committee to try using AKS, their requester, as their own communication desk?

    This is a point that is completely unacceptable. There is no independence or anything else about it. They are bumbling around right from the start. Is it also being done by lawyers who have no experience of any kind with working in a third-party committee? I can't help saying so, if they can't even comprehend the basic gist of it. Who chose the committee members and for what reason?

    -- It is reported on the official site, as signed by the AKS chief director and the responsible staff of the management/director, that they chose "people who excel in their insight as lawmakers, with a rich experience in third-party committees, on top of being able to gurarantee neutrality and fairness".

    Right now, the "Principles with coping with malpractices in quoted companies", as released by the Japan Stock-Exchange Self-Regulation body, requires special attention to be taken in the selection process of committee members, and as a common rule it is required a detailed record of the grade of independence, neutrality and specialization of the members in question.

    I'll have to presume that it was a director from outside the company that did the selection, but unless it is made clear who chose and for what reason, the credibility of the committee members remains poor. The way the third-party committee is formed already highlights in a true way the stance of the company, and whether or not it possesses any ability of self-cleansing. This is the reason third-party committees are supposed to be "scary".

    -- In this case, what is AKS's stance perceived to be?

    They have written that they "did the selection according to the «Third-party guidelines in case of corporate malpractices», by the Japanese Federation of Lawyers", but I'd prefer they would not utilize the Japanese Federation of Lawyers just to easily give themselves an air of authority. Even this committee is actually something that was brought out just to "conceal what's rotten". If I have to take chances, I'll say that the truth about this case is not going to come out, so they are only using the third-party committee as a "front" for themselves to hide behind. I doubt that any decently-made report document is going to come out of it, either.

    https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/268506?page=3
    -- Anyway, I have heard that the compensation paid for the third-party committee is a hefty sum.

    Upon forming a third-party committee, when it comes to the compensation paid to the regular members, the price is set at around 2~30,000,000 yen, more or less. I'd venture to say that for the chairman, it's 10,000,000 yen, but if the other two people happen to be young lawyers, then I imagine it would be about 5,000,000 yen each. If you add to it the examination costs and all, it will probably take something in the order of a few million yen.

    While jobs in the way of company merging and acquisitions are decreasing, for a group of lawyers it has become a money-making business to act as third-party committee members. Still, should they release a report document that follows the intentions of the requesting company, their neutrality as lawyers will end up being questioned.

    -- That's a great price. If, supposedly, they received this sum of money from AKS, it would make make it hard for them to release a research report which has content that would be too severe for AKS. Then there'll be "instructions" coming into play.

    What's necessary for a third-party committee member is to have an attitude where they would put themselves in the perspective of all stakeholders, and once there step into the matter and decisively take out the rotten part from the agency that committed irregularities. For such a committee, their actual requesters are all the stakeholders, fans included. If a lawyer hasn't gotten used to it by accumulating previous experience, this is going to be a pretty hard task to do. For a lawyer, their basic job is to stay close to their requesters, in a good sense, and vouch for their stance. However, when it comes to third-party committee, they must necessarily be severe toward the company which on the papers is their requester. Considering this is the opposite of their normal role, being able to switch sides around is essential.

    It's indeed a large amount of money for a compensation, but this is not pocket money coming out of the company's boss, though. This is money coming from the stakeholders. In the case in question, it's the money of all the NGT48 fans who bought CDs and merchandise, it's the money given by the companies which employed them in commercials, it's the money that originally should have been part of the salary for the idols and the staff, this is what they are using. One must think of it this way. As such, the committee needs to yield results that all fans, as well as the idol themselves including the victim, would find reasonable.

    "There are way too many Pretend Third-Party Committees"

    -- Another big problem is that the requesting company and the lawyers in the commission are perceived as being too close to one another. And with the fact that the third-party committee is not going to make a direct report to their own stakeholders, but to the direction board of AKS, this means it's AKS that will make an external announcement instead.

    There are way too many of such "Pretend Third-Party Committees" around, which are so in name only and are utilized only for the purpose of suppressing facts and deflecting the responsability of the managers. It's for this reason that we have set up a "Commission for the evaluation of third-party committee reports" (chairman: lawyer Kubori) of our own. With members who were involved in compiling the guideline rules as its main components, and with the further participation of researchers and journalists, our attempt is to give to the world outside third-party committee reports that will be of a better quality as public documents.

    Even for what it concerns the report document released last year on March by Kobe Steel, which had falsified its performance data, we had handed down a severe rating. Today's third-party committee will too end up being similar to the case of Kobe Steel, probably. The company will take the committee's report and then make their announcement after picking the parts as it suits them, that's the way it will be. In a third-party committee report made by specialists who have independence and neutrality, it's is highly likely for unrelated matters to also come up inside.

    -- In a third-party committee where there remains room for doubt about their true indipendence from the requesting company, even if the victim of the assault, Yamaguchi Maho-san, and the other members were to undergo examination hearings, one might question whether or not they would trust the committee enough to bring themselves to say the truth.

    Right now, in the much-criticized third-party committee of the Ministry of Labour, it is being perceived as questionable how the chief executive is taking part in the hearings. That's because it shouldn't be allowed for any staff members from the agency side to be in the examination hearings. Moreover, going by informations from what can be currently grasped, it's only inevitable that even the committee in question is being considered to be too lax in terms of mantaining a certain independence from AKS, and as such members might feel too scared to tell the truth. From the standpoint of independence and neutrality, one can say that even this NGT48 case has elements that brings it in common with the cases of the Ministry of Labour and Kobe Steel.

    https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/268506?page=4
    Right from its inception, all the way until present, AKS's third-party committee had received harsh assessments, but for what it concers independence and neutrality, there are various rumors and speculations also spreading around across the Internet, in addition to that. The writer of this article had requested for an interview with the committee's members, or otherwise for an inaugural press conference to be held. The reason for it is that the feeling is that "Because there has been an insufficient level of public informations, including that about the selection process, the trust and expectations about the committee, as perceived by the public and fans among them, are extremely low".

    A public statement of opinions done through mass medias, explaining what points are to be taken into consideration within the examination procedure, as well as making it clear what the career history of the committee members is up until they participated in the third-party committee. Those are the requirement that one can consider will give a sense of reassurance to the stakeholders, in addition to allowing the inspection activities by the committee to proceed smoothly.

    Regardless, the only effective thing available is only this committee

    But in the end, the request wasn't satisfied.

    From all of the three lawyers, the reply was invariably "in order to maintain independence, neutrality, and fairness about the case at hand, we are taking absolutely no interviews (without exceptions)"

    As sad as it is, we find it hard to say they are turning their faces toward the stakeholders with this move. Whether or not a "result that all fans, as well as the idol themselves including the victim, would find reasonable", as lawyer Kubori himself had pointed out, can be obtained is thus extremely doubtful.

    Even so, at present time, serving as a concrete action that may have practical effects, there is only such a committee with their activities. As a journalist, our duty is to check the situation periodically, and at the same time hope for any improvement to come while things are in motion. While proceeding with the interviews and information collection, we want to look at any future developments.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2023
    • Winner Winner x 19
    • Informative Informative x 11
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  8. dxsmiled

    dxsmiled Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2018
    Oshimen:
    yokoyamayuiteam8
    Looks like NGT is really Fubar'd now, do you guys have any idea what they can possibly do to recover after this mess?
     
  9. Qtyu33

    Qtyu33 Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Location:
    Singapore
    Oshimen:
    mukaichimion
    D
    Disband please. Don't drag the other 48s group in the mud
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Creative Creative x 1
  10. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    Twitter:
    speranzom
    Uh, now that I took a look at it again, the machine translation is really incomprehensible in some parts. Here is a transcript of everything that has been said, for the sake of accuracy:

    Councilor Obuchi: "Next up, there's also been an assault incident against a NGT48 member, which has taken place. First of all, to preface, I'd like to pray for the member who suffered harm to recover her peace and security, both mental and physical.
    On the other hand, regarding the stir that followed, this is having widespread repercussions in many ways, with local sponsors discontinuing commercials, and the likes. As the cause behind all of this is that the response from the management company had been slow and passive after the incident happened, which has given rise to confusion and speculations, in addition it has also been remarked before that the explanation given to the region had been insufficient.
    NGT48 has been established while upholding as their principles a closeness to the territory and contribution to the region, engaging in PR for the attractions of this prefecture, and were thus treated with familiarity even by the people of the prefecture.
    As they also collaborate to the promotion of the prefecture with their presence, I find that we as the Prefecture are in a position where we cannot just watch the events from the sidelines. I'd like to ask if the Prefecture has requested for an explanation from the management company, which serves as a communication desk. Moreover, I'd also like to ask what kind of explanation you have thus received, and what kind of understanding and judgment you are currently drawing, about today's case."


    Governor Hanazumi: "Next up, regarding the case which is involving NGT48, a notice has come in from the management company on today's issue, directed at the delegated section. As I have heard, the explanation is that they will soon proceed with the examinations by the third-party committee and they will then publicly announce the results. As the Prefecture, we want to keep following the future developments of the situation."

    ---
    A video (although of the question only) during the assembly session can be found here. Albeit it's from a session from the end of February, I guess it hasn't been made publicly available until a few days ago hence why it was picked up only now:
    https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1101832299019001856/pu/vid/1280x720/4psaYwgTwCkhrILn.mp4

    Also, part of me wants to just make a remark about the fact that, for all the empty promises (go take a look again at all the hype talk behind the 2nd generation auditions), the NGT48 management never bothered to do much of a PR for the region worth calling so, much less one aimed to the outside, for the government to think of them as such a promotional asset in the first place. They are basically a limited gotouchi idol group in everything but a few very superficial trappings of a national idol group, and it follows that even in terms of looseness of security, management (as well as members) they are no different than any other gotouchi idol groups either.
    To say that for all these years Im*mura did jack shit for the furtherance of the group would make it sound like a compliment, I wonder what he was so busy doing apart from having those drinking parties with yakkai wotas in order to "tame them", as he used to put it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Taka22

    Taka22 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Oshimen:
    satoshiori
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Location:
    Italy
    Twitter:
    speranzom
    I told it before, but no time to show up even for a second at the meeting for the members' families but enough to have drinking parties with other disgraced individuals, huh...

    ---
    Edit: Aaand the coward deleted it already. For those who missed the spectacle, here is what the tweet was like:
    D0-4hXdUcAA8JQM.jpg orig.jpg D0_NzLCUcAAnkP8.jpg orig.jpg
    The text in there says: "I had been listening to quite a lot of things. Everyone, be careful not to be swayed by worthless informations..." (also yes, there's a typo and he originally wrote ぐたらない, how can you screw it up?)

    I'll spare you the shitstorm of jeers and insults directed at all three people pictured in that shot, the word's choice, the timing and everything else, but you can do a little search on Twitter for yourself and read the replies to it that were posted in the meantime, just by looking up the tweets with tgsk1115 as the receiver.
    Like this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
    • Like x 6
    • Agree x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • Winner x 1
    • Useful x 1
  13. Reveen

    Reveen Under Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Location:
    Sunnyvale Trailer Park
    Jeez Togasaki's really let himself go eh. And wasn't he pictured innocently drinking with another certain someone, funny coincidence that
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. nobodywil

    nobodywil Upcoming Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    From the Islands to The Bay
    Looks like a good time, with some good brothers. :approve:
     
    • Creative Creative x 3
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Taka22

    Taka22 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Oshimen:
    satoshiori
    D0_KM9eV4AAuWo-.jpeg

    AKB's manager was with them ,
    he deleted his tweet as well :glare:
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  16. Dirkkun

    Dirkkun Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    March 6
    http://40298ch.com/test/read.cgi/karakoro/1548413013/197
    • Maijitsu article about one of Maho's 'liked' tweet from a few days ago implicating suspected members.
    • A video was found where Inaoka and Kasai confess to some older wrongdoings while playing a party game.
    • The Imamura/Togasaki/Hosoi drinks meetup. (http://akb48glabo.com/archives/5625081.html)
    ----------------------------------​
    Maho liked a tweet while I was writing this post:
    https://twitter.com/ochiha_debu/status/1103293444930265088 (About the Togasaki tweet)

    and then later a few others:
    https://twitter.com/maho_fav_s
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 7
    • Like Like x 1
  17. wlerin

    wlerin Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oshimen:
    Taniguchi Megu
    Truly man's capacity to get upset over nothing is limitless.
     
    • Dislike x 13
    • Disagree x 9
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 1
    • Winner x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Old x 1
  18. Taka22

    Taka22 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Oshimen:
    satoshiori
    Here comes management's white knight:approve:
     
    • Like x 8
    • Creative x 2
    • Dislike x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • Winner x 1
  19. wlerin

    wlerin Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oshimen:
    Taniguchi Megu
    By all means don't let me interrupt your increasingly farcical circlejerk, just find it funny the amount of rage three long time coworkers meeting for drinks is eliciting here and on Twitter/2ch/etc. I can't wait to see the reaction when Hosoi orders a cheese pizza.

    We knew they hadn't fired Imamura, what did you expect had become of him?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
    • Dislike x 10
    • Disagree x 5
    • Like x 2
    • Winner x 1
    • Informative x 1
  20. nobodywil

    nobodywil Upcoming Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    From the Islands to The Bay
    What all threads should have! Good conversations, good times... :approve:
     

Share This Page