[GENERAL] The Sakamichi Series group thread

Regarding Neru's decision, whether it was her own completely or whether it had to do with crappy management/ownership, that's my "high standards for management" interpretation. If a member has concerns or other interests, work with them. That's what Nogi did with Ikuchan when she wanted to be a musical actress. Nogi has given various members hiatuses (Reika kinda, Himetan, Kubo, Momoko, Mizuki). Chiichan and Renachi went to very good colleges while they were in Nogi. And with Neru, it's not just any member - when it's one of your most important members, you def work with them. Nogi has showed that it pays off in the long term. (Even Chiichan, who graduated, kinda helps Nogizaka by bringing her ex-Nogizaka brand with her when she's on TV as an announcer.) It's management's "job" to satisfy Neru and keep her with them. If you're management, keep her happy, keep yourself happy (because she brings in $), and keep the fans happy. If you're FC Barcelona and Suarez says he might want to leave, you try to keep him. Same thing.

It was early for Keyaki, but their management can look at the history of Nogizaka. And the level of success of Keyaki by that time was pretty big. (Even if one says that Keyaki was not as successful as Nogi 4 years in as a whole, Keyaki's songs and photobooks now are as successful or more successful than Nogi's songs and photobooks when Nogi was 4-years old.) If Nanamin graduated on the 8th single, yeah, I don't know, but if Maiyan or Nanase graduated on the 8th single, I would say yes, Nogizaka would have given her a big graduation. In any case, I still think that by this time, Sakamichi management as a whole has enough history and success for Keyaki management to want to do a big graduation for a super important member.

If Imaizumi's graduation was too early for a big graduation, the ensuing Bunshun story and Imaizumi's silence (lack of denial) to me tells of a bad exit. So in her case, even if one accepts that big graduations were too early for Keyaki's young history, the mood of what happened later points to a bad exit anyway for me.

 

@Conjyak
My resentment is just no different from few pages before this, as the line of our disagreement.
Neru (from what it seems) isn't one of them. it goes by what we mean about "happy". in contemplative way, that deep question. she seems done with idol life/showbiz then nothing can change that or satisfy her, just like yone or even nanamin. so i don't get why it blames right to the faulty (af) mgmt. This one-of-a-kind still a lost case even if it happens in nogi.
(so in a way we agree that neru doesnt get the deserving treatment as important she was, but in other way that also not implying that she bothered or unhappy with that. It's just Her concern from what we can deduct is like a totally different thing apart from idol life )

i think we can say keya decide to take the risk on different path start from 5th single. yeah, their mgmt is so wise by want to learn to new things apart from nogi written history .
while they became big, but that the rapid development like creating bubbles of problems, didn't go hand in hand with the amount they can handle by the singularity of their plan and preparation.

personally i still doubt that. even if it maiyan, nanase, ikoma or the rest regular fukujin at the time.

yeah, this one regard zumin I dont have a stance like neru. one aim to be a big star, while the other turn to be just experiencing idol life. so likely there a sour term between her(zumin) and mgmt upon the graduation. i'll theorize that it also could be her desperate attempt for scoring center position but mgmt couldn't care less , but i guess that's too far for a theory.

 

I do know Keya has a system that lets less popular members to be in 1st row, and for the same reason I mentioned that Yuipon and Berisa are above the rest since they were in 1st most row most of the time. And I know being 1st row in Keyaki doens't mean anything special becuase there's no Fukujin but there's still more spotlight for them than for almost all of the members who are in 2nd and 3rd row. And do you think those factors you mentioned came out of nowhere? No, definitely not. As example, if management didn't name Techi as center of SaiMajo she would've never become the celebrity she is now. All her popularity is the result of the big role she got since the debut. With Neru's the same, she was given reevant roles in the A-sides of the group until the 1st album, and all of that helped to build her popularity. There have been 8 singles in Keyaki and a senbatsu announcement of the 9th single in these 4 YEARS, that's pretty enough information and time to tell who are/were the top members in Keya. And the group is not that young anymore, since 4 years have passed since debut they're becoming a middle age group now.

It may sound harsh, and it's no my intention to sound like that, but what's the point in becoming the 2nd relevant/popular face in Keyaki if that's never reflected in the senbatsu of every later single? If management didn't give her a front position it was becuase they didn't care about her popularity (and that's really bad). The fact that they placed other members in front row while she was fixed in the second proves that they weren't going to acknowledge her as Keyaki's 2nd MVP. That tittle ended when they fully transfered her to Kanji (which is kind of laughable from mngmt). And yeah, everything it's management fault but it's the management Keyaki and they made their decisions about which member will get more prominence than the rest.

I know there other relevant members in Keya too, but if mngmt doesn't give them more prominent roles in later singles then it's the same as nothing, and they'll end up graduating. But I think that now that Techi left, things will be very different for better in Keyaki (nothing against Techi BTW), and I'm pretty sure Hikaru will be the center of the 9th single.

 

I never said that. being in front row could mean more legit exposure, and like I said with conjyak above, it could distinguish top member and least ones, but it's not yet established as definite measurement the same as nogi.
what I say with the exception of center, senbatsu position for keya as a metric is yet to be so essential, because it's still contradicting and vague for a system when it comes to highlighting the hierarchy among their members.

it's just use semantic. technically it mean no different to me since they still haven't gone as far as akb or nogi. if example keya disband in this year bet media will call them as short-timers on the industry.

this sound to me basically you just confirming a possible story about how screwed up their mgmt could be.

at least that is not reflected on nikkei at all. i just found out that they still counted her for 2019.
public recognition: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8CPcbzX4AAOmf8?format=png&name=4096x4096
power ranking: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8FwrteX4AEzc84?format=png&name=medium

-------

yup, hope they can turn the tide.

 

Kazumin has been in every senbatsu but not often as fukujin. She has an outsize influence on the group that belies her "minor" stature. Importance can be measured in other ways.

 

The difference between Nogizaka, Keyakizaka and Hinatazaka

An old guy said "I cant tell the difference between Sakamichi groups" A young copywriter explained, "Imagine a cherry tree. The one singing about the beauty of the cherry blossom blooming is Hinatazaka, the one singing about the beauty of that flower falling is Nogizaka, and the one singing that the beauty of the flower is because there is a dead body buried underneath it is Keyakizaka."

 

But what's the point in becoming high in sembatsu every single if that's never reflected in how relevant/popular you are to Keyaki fans and the public?

In any case, in another comment, I also listed many things Neru was in that shows management considered her important at the number 2 level only after Hirate.

I was browsing the Keyaki sembatsu positions, and something interesting was that when Neru was in the 2nd row, she was almost always in the middle of the row. I wonder if this itself was another thing or gimmick management was doing. Starting from the second single, Neru's positions are: 2nd row left, 2nd row middle, 1st row left, 2nd row middle, 2nd row middle, 2nd row middle, 3rd row middle.

(Btw, new Bunshun article.)

 

The rumored Bully Squad
Keyaki's long lasting unit

Take this rumor with a grain of salt.

 

@Conjyak & @cantankerous I'm going to reply both of you so my post doesn't get too long.

We clearly have very different opinions about what are the metrics to measure the members' position in the Keyaki hierarchy. So there's no point in arguing if Neru is the 2nd most important member in Keyaki if we're not going to agree about the metrics.

I keep my argument about the senbatsu position being the main metric among all of them, becuase members are fated to enter and leave the group as time goes by, but the management is the one who is supposed to be permanent; definitely it's a c**ppy one but it's the only management Keyaki has had. So I have to consider a lot the decisions they've made about the members and their positions for every single. As I said in previous comments Keyaki doesn't have Fukujin positions like Nogi that let us to identify who are the top members, and for that reason it's the same if a member is in 1st, 2nd or 3rd row. But there has to be something that is the closest to Nogi's Fukujin, and that's the 1st row, and although all the 1st gen has been in there, is the # of times that should be counted. If it's not now, sooner or later the 1st row what will become in that status that is above simply being in senbatsu and below being center. And actually this idea of came out after noticing that in Hinata, Nao, Katoshi and Kyoko are the only one who have been in first row in all the singles. And that made me realize that, more than Techi being center in all the singles, it was the lack of more fixed 1st row members that created that idea of "Keyakizaka46=Techi", becuase until the 5th single no member other than Techi was in the front for more than 2 singles in row, it seems that since Garasu they tried to fix that. Because whoever gets to be the new center of the 9th single, it's very likely that she'll keep that position for more singles, and if that happens, it's important to have other members in first row for at least the same times in a row the new center continues being it.

You may agree or disagree with this because we're humans and we have different ideas. But that's mine I won't change it, at least not for now.

I don't think we'll get anywhere in discussing about Neru's position, role, or relevancy so I prefer to stop it. But I'm willing to keep the debate about the importance of the 1st row as a status between senbatsu and center, because I think that's something that will become relevant in the future. But I'm done about Neru's status, so this is it.

Actually, among the 25 times she's been in senbatsu, 12 of them have been in Fukujin. And pondering the times she's been in Senbatsu and Fukujin, she's top 5 among the current members in having the biggest positions in the group, so she definitely doesn't have a "minor" stature.

And the dead body is Yoshimotozaka (?) *just joking*

It's curious that almost all of them are either out of the last senbatsu or in hiatus. Don't trying to imply something, just wanted to point that out.

 

Corrected the link. Also send you a PM if you wish to redirect the talk.

It all depends on the fans to be honest, the staying one. How they will react with the reset of 9th single senbatsu formation, new face of the group, basically all the change. Fans has the power, always has. Those unsustainable policy won't gone too far if majority fans demanded otherwise on time, afterall.

For this, I have to humbly ask you to buy it yourselves. Or ask someone to gift you

There was a term in Keyakizaka around Sekai ni wa about their 2nd row that, it is their "Actual 1st row", since it's filled with their best handshake sellers. "Keyakizaka Burger" If I recall. Neru were assumed Keyaki #2 not because she is the center flank, but more because she occupy center of this row for multiple times. As if she is the shadow center.

Assumption, I know.

 

Thanks very much!

!!

Also, that isn't that unlike Nogi's situation in the first 5 singles. The gosanke (Maiyan, Machu, Nanamin) was always in the 2nd row and Nanase was in row 2 or row 3, when in terms of the best handshake sellers, the gosanke was at the top and Nanase from the 3rd single and onwards was in that top group, too.

 

All three groups have now released their 4th single. The nature of the groups:

Heaven

if the video does not show watch the video here

Earth

if the video does not show watch the video here

Hell

if the video does not show watch the video here

 

Your source for that is:
https://twitter.com/you1026/status/1093144730420953088

Do note that he used AKB48 as the one singing about the sakura in full bloom

The guy actually went on to change a few more things to that initial photo. Check https://twitter.com/you1026/status/1094572716479270912

Rough translation below:
"Cutting the sakura tree down to build a building, then asking adults "if its OK" that is Keyakizaka46"

"Having a party under the sakura tree, that is NMB48"

"The one is caused most lost of life in the world, that is AK47" NO MORE WAR

"The one who started the whole hanami, that is Akimoto Yasushi"

The other old dude in the photo is Motojiro Kaiji, a Japanese poet. The words don't make sense to me without knowing source and context.

==================================

There are alternate ways of explaining 48G and 46G using the sakura tree analogy, like this for example
Source: https://twitter.com/ohisamanokokyu/status/1249925139568807936

"The one singing about the beauty of the sakura in full bloom is AKB48"

"The one singing about the beauty of the sakura falling is Nogizaka46"

"The one singing about the beauty of the empty sakura tree is Keyakizaka46"

"The one singing about the beauty of the sakura budding is Hinatazaka46"

 

One of similarity indeed.

Another is how the first row of first 5 single is filled with management fave, the girls that is plotted to be the recognizable face of the group. IkuIkoHoshi if people still remember, while Keya done it with entire of their 1st gen in rotation(implying all of them are management fave, perhaps).

Personally, I still believe that Keya 1st row rotation at that period is healthier even today, as every member were given fair chance to be the group face share of group weight under their shoulder(Something I recall were what Saito Chiharu and rest of Nogi 1ki non-senbatsu said during first episode of NogiKoko). Although overtime, I do get it's not ideal system either as one-time first row can be big matter on internal fandom but means little on public recognition (as Nikkai Graph 2017-2018 showcased) compared to the consecutive first row(Now that I think about it, is what Sony reverted back into on Hina with Katoshi and Kyonko flank). It's also can get muddier as 2nd gen might want their share of first row too and it may require multiple single again. lol

Funnily, that's few of idol group policy I want to keep continued. Not just limited to Keya.

 

Nogi did have under 1st generation members rotating into row 3 once up until the 10th single. (One could interpret Kiichan (8th single), Iori (11th single) , and Maichun's (12th single) first-time sembatsus as kinda rotations as none of them go back to sembatsu until the 15th single (Kiichan) and 16th single (Maichun), after which those two are pretty much legit sembatsu row 3. But since none of the other 2nd gens (putting aside Miona obviously) have this sort of "rotated into sembatsu early, clearly boosted by management above what their handshake popularity shows" treatment, it's safe to say that 2nd gen and any gen afterwards did/will not get this rotation treatment.) I don't really remember what was said in ep1 of Nogikoko but I somewhat doubt that they said that, since that's quite early in Nogi's history. Maybe it was in a later Nogikoko ep? Though I could be wrong. All I remember from early Nogikoko is that under is in the studio and they do random member-focused chats.

While I don't know if I can agree that Keyaki management thinks their entire 1st gen is their push, especially when compared to the degree that Nogi management believed in Iku-I-Hoshi to be their push, I do agree that rotation can be good for internal member morale. I think Nogi's 1st gen rotation into row 3 was good for morale - for 1st gen morale. Like you say, the problem is whether that means management ought to rotate 2nd gen and every gen afterwards into sembatsu at least once. And if management doesn't, then what does that do to members? Well, we already know the answer, which is that it was/is bad for 2nd gen morale (and with the 25th single gift to 1st gen, that means that there are some 1st gen members who have basically been given two bonus sembatsus, one via early rotation and one via Maiyan power lol, while there are 2nd gen members who have had none).

But on the other hand, rotation gives a lot of power to management. Keeping the gosanke in row 2 and Iku-I-Hoshi as a unit often in the front row was management rotating within the fukujin area in singles 1-5. Rotating unders into row 3 is up to management. 25th single in a way is a certain kind of "rotation" that management decided on. Rotating in Keyaki rows is all up to management. Rotation basically means management does whatever it wants with its subjective judgement. And in the long term, I think that can cause resentment, bad morale, and politics within members. At least that's the theory I've been pushing. When handshake sales and merchandise sales are big deciding factors for sembatsu/under ranking, those are objective measures that take away room from management's subjective decisions. And with objective measures, you get a sense that it's more of a meritocracy, and if members accept that, there is more "breathing room" for members to get a long. But I don't quite believe Keyaki's sembatsu rotating (other than the center position) caused Keyaki's problems. But Nogi's history of when to rotate (and when not to) has obviously not been positive for 2nd gen's morale.

I think Keyaki rotating is ok since they didn't have an under. Especially in the early era, for both groups, it's still uncertain to be sure who is really going to be your perma front row and who is going to be your perma back row, so management wants to rotate to test members out, and members want to rotate so that everyone gets a chance. So I actually think Keyaki's rotating was a good thing.

 

Someone here said that Keyaki never have anyone front more than twice in a row, but that is false. Mon and Pon are those that have been constantly given important role in senbatsu, thus marking them as one of the pillars.

*Mon: 5 front (3 in a row from Kaze Ni to Ambivalent) - 2 second row - 1 third row for Hitsuji (but can be argued that mmg already know about her grad plan so they chose to push other members, also Kuroi doesn’t suit her as much)

*Pon: 5 front (4 in a row starting from Kaze Ni, pretty much a secured front for 9th or center even) - 3 second row - never been in a third row

*Aside from constant first row, there’re members that have never been in 3rd row. For example Yuuka is almost always in front or 2nd row center (with Akanen) depending on the song.

I’d argue that Keyaki does have a loose concept of Fukujin, as in which members will most likely snatch front, but still able to give chances to members with lower popularity if they suit the songs by rotating 1st row. I also suspect that Takahiro-sensei does have a say in senbatsu, so Keyaki rotation/senbatsu is pretty much a mix of mmg push and how well each member suits the given songs. I think this gives more variation, also balancing product quality (due to better-suit members) and sales, than purely uses sales as the deciding factor.

 

It did cause them problems
The rotation ratified the mgt mandate on 1 member.
That Keyaki rotation divided the group in just two entities ( The centre and the support ) .
As the singles piles on ; It accumulates a ton of barrier that became a wall by the time they hit the 4th single. It became a longterm dilemna coz there's no immediate rank below the centre.

And this barrier could have been avoided by having 2 or 3 members that are constant with the center from 1st Single onwards. Altho pon and mon did get some 1st row positions by 6th until 8th,It's already too late imo , Fans have already accustomed to the norm of two entities and it also didnt help them even tho they are in the Front. Screentime is still as scarce as someone from the second and 3rd row.

Parity is good short term but to succeed long term, the group needs a competitive system or goal that can be achieved by a member that produces vital numbers

And this where S&F learned from their mistake a lil bit , They apply some change to Hinata by allowing Kato Shiho and Saito kyoko to be constant with Kosaka Nao.
In this situation , The barrier aint existing , they can still rotate some members but this time it established a clear rank or target to be reached by the members.

 

Can't someone just say that Keyaki did have 2 or 3 members that are kinda constant with the center in Kobayashi Yui and Watanabe Risa? Same with Nogi with Ikuchan and Hoshino Minami together with Ikoma in 4 of the first 5 singles.

 

Yea they did but its already too late
The constant happened in Kaze ni (5th single to 8th ) as said by the previous commenter.

But the Damage have already been dealt coz at that time ; The walls that separate the center and the rest is well fortified. You can see it by the way fans describe the center and the members.

As I said before Ikoma and Hirate aint the same , Ikoma's consecutive centre is not that fortified it lacks fan support and recognition but Hirate is well recognized as of 4th single

 

I never said the centers are the same. What I asked is that all the groups seem to have 2 front row regulars. I see what you're saying, but I don't see a big reason to draw a line between the 4th single and after that. It's up to management where to draw that line, like they did with Nogi between the 5th and 6th singles. And in fact, Keyaki drew half of that line after the 8th single, of course, with the introduction of under. Which is why I include all singles for Keyaki when looking at their front row, whereas for Nogi I would look at singles 1-5 and draw a line between that and later singles. And while I see what you're saying, I don't think it was too late to have Kobayashi Yui and Watanabe Risa in the front row from the 5th single onward. Besides, I'm looking at it from the management push and member morale perspective. (If you want to bring fans into this, then row formation becomes less important, because then you have Neru being super popular.)

Rotation also isn't mutually exclusive with having 2 front row regulars. What I said is that Keyaki rotation was a good thing (for member morale). You can still have rotation and 2 front row regulars, like with Hinata. Or rotation of unders in a couple spots in row 3, like Nogi 1st gen.

The question of how much having 2 front row regulars would help with member chemistry is still interesting though. But I wonder if it's because Hinata's example is just too good. Management can push two non-center members to be front row regulars from singles 1-4, and if they get it right, then that's good. But if they get it wrong, then maybe not. Like in Nogi's case, while Ikuchan can be argued as a front row semi-regular, Minami isn't a front row regular. I'm not sure Nogi's initial front row regulars provided a good rank or target for other members, whereas Hinata's perhaps does because Hinata management happened to get that right.