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[GENERAL] The Sakurazaka46 / Keyakizaka46 Thread

Discussion in 'General Sakurazaka46 Discussion' started by ForrestFuller, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. minaeshi

    minaeshi Next Girls

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    Morita Hikaru
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    it makes me wonder how the new zaka46 will look in terms of formation.. despite keyaki members being around for so long, we've never really gotten a "kami" "fukujin" list, and only went by who was popular at the time (looking at handshake sales etc). i think with this new name change we might see the first keyaki fukujin, its gonna be real interesting!

    for 1ki i think pon, yuuka, akanen and risa are guaranteed + habu, and possibly koike
    2ki is more interesting, but i'm placing my bets on hono, runrun, matsurina, and... rena? i don't know why, but i feel like they'll push her the most out of the new 2kis.
    what do u guys think?
     
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  2. keyak

    keyak Upcoming Girls

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    Feb 13, 2019
    Location:
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    Kubo & Mii-pan easily have 2-3 years of stage experience over Marina so I'm real proud of her for holding her own up there (plus doing a great job repping the group).

    Ooh this should be fun.

    So Keyaki currently has 13 1ki (RIP 21-nin), 9 original 2ki, and 6 new 2ki.

    They definitely ain't going to stick all 28 members on stage so I suspect they'll choose the usual popular girls of 1ki (the nine who were part of the original 9th senbatsu + add Koike back in), and the rest will be a bloodshed amongst the 15 2ki girls.

    I predict senbatsu will be max 18. Which leaves ~8 spots for 2ki.

    Definitely in: Hono, Marina, Morita, Karin
    Probably in: TakeYui, Ten, Seki, Inori (& Matsudaira if there's a spot for her)
    Possibly could replace one of the above: Hikari Endo, Moriya Rena
    Probably not in: well, whoever's left :cry:

    This is just going off of my impression of the relative "hype" surrounding the 2ki members and the roles they played in the Dare ga live perf. The type of song could also impact which members are selected, but I don't think mngt will exclude the popularity factor completely. Hope no one's offended.
    My real offensive comment is that there's 2 back-rower 1st gen girls who I'd really like to see disappear from senbatsu so more spots can open up for 2ki but those two are known as wota-attractors so I doubt mngmt will do it. Still hoping though.

    My prediction on fukujin/kami-7: Sugai, Risa, Pon, Hono, Hikaru, Matsuda and three way tie amongst Akane, Habu, and Karin. But if they can stick in a new 2ki member (Endo or Rena) in the front row, I'll give my first pat-in-the-back to mngmt in a very long time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
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  3. Iamyoung

    Iamyoung Future Girls

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  4. rdamon42

    rdamon42 Member

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    渡邉 理佐 / 守屋麗奈
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    rdamon42
    Hahaha, just messin' with you :p thank you for the kind words though

    Glad to see my new favorite Rena-chan getting some traction

    Marina has no shortage of confidence. I wasn't really into her at the beginning but she has won me over with her perseverance and dedication.

    I gotta go find some PonPon singing videos, I only remember her singing with a guitar very early on in their presentation.

    This made me curious. I'd guess but is it worth the risk of being crucified by their supporters? :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2020
  5. Dill

    Dill Next Girls

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    Oshimen:
    Techi
    I hoped this day would never come, but here we are... so, let's do it.

    Pushing Rena just because she's pretty feel a little too much right now. I like her and I wanna see her on senbatsu, but I hope she'll show us more from here to that moment. There will be 1ki who will be pushed out of it because they're not that pretty, no matter how good they are or how much they gave to Keyaki, so I hope people who will get in will be worth the position.

    Yuuka and Akane have a secured spot on it, even if I'd put one of them in the second group, Pon is our Ace right now and Hikaru is probably the next one so they are in. Risa and Habu I'll never keep out of it.
    I too wish some 1st gen won't be in senbatsu for the same reason @keyak already gave, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

    It's one of the many reasons I dislike this system. When there was no senbatsu there was also no need to chose money over quality because both were on display. Like this it will be a mess from now on and it's not just about fans discussing or fighting, it's about members you genuinely like you'll push out of senbatsu to get what you proritize more: your Oshi, the visual of the group, the quality of the performances.

    In five years I hope I'll watch back and think it has been worth...
     
  6. rdamon42

    rdamon42 Member

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    渡邉 理佐 / 守屋麗奈
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    I think the new 2ki are still being carefully evaluated. There will be standouts for management and fans for sure (for me its Cheese Ozono, Masumoto and Rena) but I really don't see anyone getting super pushed at this stage. We can relax on that front, methinks.

    I agree that the four pillars of Dare Kane (and one can argue, the current pillars of 'Zaka) Ponpon, Captain, Akanen and Risa will get the lion's share of responsibilities. There are some very good candidates in 2ki too.

    Allow me to be contrarian for a second: I actually favor the senbatsu system. It has worked for AKB, for Nogi, and various others. It gives motivation for the girls to continually improve, and not rely on just being pretty (like Rena, for example) as visuals are only one part of being an idol. Is it perfect? Of course not. But it also allows room for letting other girls develop quietly without risk of overexposure.
     
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  7. izzy7402

    izzy7402 Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2020
    I wish mgmnt would surprise us with the lineup, because going by popularity would be too meta. It takes small snippets of members singing for fans to realize they are talented vocalist, and very quick shots of members dancing for fans to evaluate their dancing ability(I love the concerts but I truly despise the camera work,absolutely horrendous). Only mgmnt truly has a grasp of the members full ability, and I'd like my image of "best Sakamichi performance group" to be brought over to 00'Zaka

    Here's my dream lineup of an 18 member senbatsu, 5-6-7 formation
    1st Row: Sugai, Kobayashi, Morita(C), Risa, Akane
    2nd Row: Habu, Hono, TakeYui, MaRina, Aoi, Nijika
    3rd Row: Shiori, Koike, Karin, Ten, InoRI, Ozeki, Fuyuka
    (I did not include any new 2ki because they haven't much chance to showcase themselves yet)

    Morita is slowly seeping into my oshimen list, and that smol body carries a lot of weight and energy in her performances. Also I wanna see her clearly because she'll get blocked by all the other members. The 4 pillars at this moment is far too important to be put behind, at least for the next couple of singles. Ponpon proves to be difficult choice for me as she is proven centre material, but chose Morita at the end for the sake of a new image.

    For the second row, I placed Habu and Nijika at the side as supporting roles for the ones in the center. TakeYui and MaRina is an assumption that mgmnt will push them, and they're pretty stable performers as well. Aoi is a dance favourite, and kamioshi Hono is there because I didnt put her in front row,which i want to but im trying to be pragmatic.

    3rd row, again the senpais are surrounding the 2ki in a support role. Ozeki has gone from a weak link to a pretty stable performer, so she gets in for growth. Karin, Ten and InoRi are standouts for me, InoRi a great vocalist, Karin a great dancer, and Ten is well rounded center material.

    This is a dance heavy lineup, with some vocals to back. Endo Hikari has shown her dance ability, so would fit in replacing Ozeki/InoRi. Looking back at it almost all of them are popular members, so I guess showmanship does play a part in popularity.
     
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  8. Philosophy Senpai

    Philosophy Senpai Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2019
    Location:
    Athens
    Oshimen:
    Saito Fuyuka
    I wouldn't miss from any senbatsu discussion as this word has always been hitting me like the neurologist's hammer hits the knee...

    I always supported the underdogs (Run-run proved to be an exception as she became my oshi right from the start due to her amazing size [hehe])... I feel that girls with thousands of fans do not actually need my support, so I always keep focusing on any strengths underdogs may have and bring these to light. As Saito Fuyuka-san is my Kami Oshi it grieves me to see that whatever she gives, few can see and even if they can, even fewer may acknowledge. Do I blame the fans about it? Of course not! Each and everyone has their own reasons to like any idol and it pleases me to see all girls happy and their fans too.

    I did mention before that for me, my oshi is just first among equals. So I will not feel nice to see any underdog failing the senbatsu. However, that's the way things are...

    Right now, priorities lie on the new girls. 2nd gen (primarily and 2.5 gen after they get the proper training and grow some konjou). Life is moving on and the least I would like to see is younger girls receiving less opportunities to grow in favour of girls that are completing their "cycle" in the group. I would feel equally unhappy to see a 2ng gen, already at her 20s to stay in limbo, still waiting for her chance because of a lost place to a 1st gen. It pleases me to see that no matter how large or small, all 1st gen have had their part in recognition and have created moments that will stay in our memories with love and nostalgia :cute:...

    There are 9+6 new girls out there to enjoy. Some are already sky-rocketing in popularity and recognition, others are just falling short behind, and others will, inevitably, become the new underdogs...

    However, as long as the "system" provides every girl with enough opportunities to shine, I will be ok... Somewhat, bitter inside, but ok.

    So, let's get pragmatic and set down my own preferred senbatsu (even if I cannot avoid my biases and - maybe - displease some fans, and friends here):

    Single center (17-girls):
    1st row: Inori, Pon, Runrun, Risa, Marina (my oshi centering, flanked by experienced top-notch 1st gen and having prominent 2gen at the sides)
    2nd row: Koike, Captain, Hono, Vice-captain, Takeyui (captain and vice-captain should flank the amazing Hono and step a little backwards for the sake of the group - they get enough spotlight)
    3rd row: Habu, Ten, Aoi, Seki, Oze, Karin, Fuyuka/Shii-chan (my heart aches for Rikopi though :cute:)
    Double center (18-girls):
    Change in 1st row only as: Inori, Koike, Pon, Runrun, Risa, Marina (my oshi + Pon centering, flanked by Risa and (an apocalyptic) Koike and having prominent 2gen at the sides)
    For any possible additions to the 17/18 format, I would add Muu-chan and Nijika.
    2.5 gen should be definitely - and largely - represented for the immediate to the next single replacing mostly 1st gen.

    I would also assume that girls not making it into senbatsu MUST have a rivaling strong B-side and enough support on all other activites... Lives should be all-28...
     
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  9. Maeda_Toshiie

    Maeda_Toshiie Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2020
    I never liked the idea of a popularity based Senbatsu (eg by elections). I don't like voting by fans to affect who appears in the next single etc. To me, the fact that someone got selected to be a member of the group, means that person is qualified to sing/dance and be part of the group. I know, technically the members were chosen before undergoing training, but they couldn't have been chosen if they didn't show any potential, right? If members need to be chosen, it should be based on their suitability for the particular song/dance/performance, not because some member is prettier and/or is good at fishing during the akushukai.

    I still see it as a marketing gimmick which injects too much unnecessary fan input. (I know some will accuse my view of idols to be stuck in the Showa period*, instead of accepting the newer "AKB style" idols). Sure, it can encourage competition among the members and spur members to improve. However, the number of spots is always limited, which can easily turn it into a zero sum game. It's like the imposition of the bell curve marking scheme. As long as X number of people are better than you, you'd never be chosen, no matter how good you are. Worse if the competition becomes unhealthy and creates a toxic atmosphere in the group, which can turn things un-salvageable and ruin the group permanently.

    * Clarification: no, I was too young to have chased idols during the Showa period.
     
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  10. keyak

    keyak Upcoming Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2019
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Probably your guesses are right. Think: beautiful face but nil skills as a performer. Now, let me go find a rabbit hole to hide away from their wotas..

    I feel your pain, buddy. The senbatsu is a necessary evil. No doubt, there's a couple 1gen girls who absolutely deserves to be in senbatsu for their effort alone (looking at you, Fuu-chan) but are excluded just because they lack the popularity and will never click with the GP / fandom like the way those pretty-faces-but-have-nothing-else-to-offer members do.

    Regarding Rena, I have to kindly disagree. At the risk of contradicting myself, I think Rena should get a push simply because she's getting traction for her beauty, and we don't know what else she has to offer. Without a push, she might just become a pretty wallflower in the background, coasting through her idol gig like some of the 1gen did, but a push could give her more responsibility to improve and show that she's more than just a pretty face. It may seem unfair to her 2.5gen comrades, but idol worth has always been and will always be inextricably tied to beauty. And we all knew when Rena was picked as covergirl for the W-Moriya UTB shoot that she's the official "beauty rep" of her gen (the other girls were featured but haven't graced any mag covers yet).

    However, if it turns out that Rena has Berika-level of performance skill, then by all means kick her out of senbatsu. A standard needs to be met, pretty face or not.

    --

    If the girls were part of a legitimate professional musical group, then I'd agree with @Maeda_Toshiie that selection & push should be based on singing/dancing/perf ability. But for an idol group, they need to be marketable. After Techi's grad, the group desperately needs more "it girls". Girls who can rep the group on fashion covers, variety shows, ambassador gigs, CMs, etc. A select few of 1ki are doing that right now, but honestly none are at the scale of those top idols from other groups. Plus, they're getting older. We need 2ki / 2.5ki faces. Beautiful and talented faces if possible. But if they're around all the same level of talent, then choose the more beautiful ones. Cause they'll be more marketable.

    And if this type of competition causes some of the girls to become jealous, bitter drama-queens, then so be it. They're too weak to be in show-biz then. The industry is not for the faint-hearted, and the competition in the post-idol entertainment world is far worse (just look at the post-idol lives of top AKB grads - they were never able to replicate their idol success). Better to learn early the cruel ways of show-biz if they want to continue that path in the long run.
     
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  11. Jsprite

    Jsprite Future Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2018
    Location:
    Los Angeles, USA
    I'm afraid most things in life ARE bell-shaped curved. Also, something or someone being better or worse is always in comparison with something or someone else. If you are good at something, but everyone else around you is better at it, you are not doing very well. Salieri was a very good composer in his time, but Mozart far surpassed him. Someone mentioned Rikopi in a recent post, and honestly, I have a bad feeling about her. I'm sure she was selected among many other girls for a good reason, and she has given us very good laughs in Keyakitte. But she was not included in the original 9th single by management and her name doesn't even show up in potential lineups even by people in this very forum (Ten wasn't included either, but this has obviously changed since then).

    I can see why management and the members were comfortable with the now much-dissed "21". Is competition good or bad? Either has pros and cons.
     
  12. Dill

    Dill Next Girls

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2017
    Oshimen:
    Techi
    I fully agree with what you wrote, but this part made me think about something Shiichan said.... she's an amazing dancer, so I'm pretty sure she shown it on auditions, but she also said she couldn't remember the song and couldn't sing it at all. Yet she passed the audition.
    I like that there's staff who can see the potential of a girl even when they make mistakes like this, obviously because of nervousness, but at the same time I tend to remember staff also search for a kind of potential that has nothing to do with singing and dancing and more with catching the attention of people.

    I wrote a lot answering to this, but then I got confused on my own and had to cancel it lol
    Let me just say I don't believe senbatsu can shape a person into becoming a fighter, but it can make them become more arid. More unsure even, and mngmnt already did enough damage about that.
    The industry, every industry, is for people who work hard, but for me when in a group they should compete with other groups, not against each other.

    Also, let me spend my 2 unsoliced cents about 48s: my baby Kawaei despite her baka-character when in AKB, was doing pretty well in the industry until she got a child and stopped for awhile (but I believe she'll come back and better), while Rena is doing well too between movies, series, books, theater and so on. Others too were doing prettty well before COVID, but I doubt senbatsu and internal competition is the reason they are working well now.
    Theater is perhpas the most useful experience they had in their 48 work. Being constantly on stage gave them something we lack...

    ...I'm not proposing to have a theater instead of senbatsu system, but the idea is funnily appealing lol
    Imagine 2 hours of Inori, Marina and TakeYui Unleashed [hehe]


    ok.. it took me so long to write this that I logged out lol
    I'll end it here.
     
  13. renggadhitama

    renggadhitama Kenkyuusei

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    Indonesia
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    Kousaka Marino
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    renggadhitama
    I don't know it's out of context but who want to see 2 Moriya interaction [hehe]
    I think for the 1ki will be Pon or Risa maybe they have many job outside of singing like photoshoot, drama, etc. I like to seeing more singing from both of them
    2ki, MaRina & Chukemon seems more like it but honestly I like to see more from all the 2ki & the new ones

    And I know its already past the thread I hope they perform Kuroi Hitsuji for one last time maybe with the new group cause I don't know I really like the song since the first time I hear it & even better when I see the lyrics, it just hit me straight at the heart

    I think Fukyouwaon is over with the link strongly with Techi (it's really the best like it or hate it)
     
  14. Philosophy Senpai

    Philosophy Senpai Next Girls

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    Mar 17, 2019
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    Athens
    Oshimen:
    Saito Fuyuka
    @Maeda_Toshiie I agree with you and that was the reason that I stopped following AKB48 before knowing about the Sakamichi groups. My oshi 9th gen Miyu Takeuchi was one of the most talented AKB girls ever and she never entered senbatsu for 9 years. However, she never complained about that and now (than god) she is starting her career in South Korea.

    In show business, like in any other business, money gets the push so as to bring more money. However, talent, if given the chance may bring money (and therefore get the push to start the cycle). Girls in idol groups are selected among thousands of their peers. The good thing with J-pop is that this selection is mostly based on charisma rather than "hard skills". However, charismatic girls do not necessarily have talents (for singing and/or dancing) and we have examples of such girls that are at least good at variety or are simply pretty and score nicely at modelling. However, there are ALWAYS girls that possess talent which are (deliberately?) continuously kept in the dark corners and therefore have absolutely no chance at all to at least try and bring money.
     
  15. DelicateEmpress

    DelicateEmpress Upcoming Girls

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2019
    Oshimen:
    hirateyurina
    Rather than changing the girls to be more competitive, I feel like senbatsu selection would transform Keyaki fandom more. 48G/46G system is based on individual fandoms and not whole-group. Fans are not going to like all 20-30 members the same way. There’re always different treatments because realistically speaking, mmg can’t and aren’t going to push everyone. They do try but demand for each member is varied. The “inequalities” also encourage fans of those particular members to splash more and more money for their oshi (hs, goods, views etc) to prove to mmg that their oshi is marketable and thus deserves a better spot. The fact Keyaki has this many whole-group fans is partly due to the full senbatsu they’ve always had. Once there’s selection, tension between fans will definitely rise. Members may treat each other like families but fans are not going to hesitate to jump at others for their oshis. If any of you are familiar with Cpop you’ll know what I mean. Outsiders often criticize “individual fans” but this type of group lives off these fans. It’s even more important for the girls once they graduate and start a solo career.

    My preferred senbatsu lean more over suitability than popularity. It’s also why I enjoy how S&F rotates formation rows pretty frequently. But I’m also merely a Keyaki supporter rather than a fan now so I could be more careless about the formation, as long as the performance delivers. Mmg, on the other hand, has to control the ratio of stan attractor and talent to align with their plans/strategies so their senbatsu might or might not clash with mine and that's totally understandable.

    @Philosophy Senpai Miyu was one of gen 9 representatives though and apparently was also the original gen 9 (aka the golden gen) ace. If you rewatch AKBingo when gen 9 was first introduced, she was given opportunities along with Yuihan, Suzuran, Paruru (Paruru's biggest push was a bit later on). Miyu was also chosen for Manatsu no Sounds Good and Eien Pressure (both in 2012). During the early days, she centered some AKB bsides (the most famous one was W-center with Paruru for Hashire Penguin). These are already more than lots of what other AKB girls are ever given. Sadly her popularity never took off and AKS quickly dropped her and moved on to other girls. It sucks to see such a talented girl being wasted for years but I wouldn't say that AKS didn’t try.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  16. turbogig

    turbogig Member

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    Apr 23, 2020
    Oshimen:
    Habu Mizuho
    I see, all the heavy hitters already voice their opinions. Good stuff, well done.
    So it comes to senbatsu, yes? Unlike many of you, I have only surface level knowledge on other 48/46G, but oh well, I'll give a try anyway. I'll be straightforward and simple-minded here.

    Frankly, I liked the full senbatsu concept. For all its faults, that system succeded in giving everybody their share of spotlight. Secondly, for me, it seems only fair that a group has to utilize all of the available "resources". Like in the military, no one gets left behind - we are together in this shit and we have no choice but to get the job done as a team. The "21 bond" may sound childish and naive, but I don't feel this way. Strong sense of camaraderie is, in fact, the best way to promote individual self-improvement. Even though the senbatsu spot is "guaranteed", it is, more importantly, your responsibility to do your part and to not drag the others down. On the other hand, even if you're skilled and do your job perfectly, it still amounts to nothing if the others are lagging behind. Mutual support as well as a healthy dose of "peer pressure" is crucial part of a group. Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno - having a bit of military experience myself I really came to appreciate this idea. The way I see it, full senbatsu really was a good thing.

    That being said, I sadly have to accept that we can't continue like this, completely unchanged. My lack of knowledge shows, but it pains me to even acknowledge that some members might have to become essentially "benchwarmers" now. If they are here in the group, all of them deserve to be in a single. Simple. Never once I felt that 21 formation was too crowded. Of course, MV screen was limited, but at least they all were there.

    Now we have 28. Okay, that might be a bit too much, I'll agree. Still, no one should be left behind. No matter how good 1ki are (and how I like them), simply from a time perspective the process of securing a senbatsu spot is inherently unfair to 2ki and shin 2ki. Some of your senbatsu drafts do reflect this problem as well. I do want to give new members more chances to shine, but at the same time I can't let go of the old ones. How can we get out of this problem? Is the main single senbatsu and "unders group" the only choice? If that's the case, I don't really like the derogatory aspect of being "under". Is there absolutely no way to put all members to use in a cultured way?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2020
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  17. rdamon42

    rdamon42 Member

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    渡邉 理佐 / 守屋麗奈
    Twitter:
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    This was one of my guesses, it came out after all didn't it? If it is Berika then I'll be one of the wotas coming after you with pitchforks and torches LOL

    I really think of senbatsu as a chance to, use a college football term, redshirt a member and allow them to develop behind the scenes. Granted, it is an imperfect system and can also be used to generate sales, but I do believe it is necessary. I've only started following idols three years ago but I have already seen my share of pretty faces but with little dancing or singing ability. I like my idols well rounded personally.

    This. Truly not everyone can be a DD, and the concept of having an oshi is deeply ingrained.
     
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  18. keyaaa

    keyaaa Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2019
    Oshimen:
    nagahama neru
    Senbatsu after new name i'm going for risa pon w center, next single morita hono w center
    just do it nogizaka way, the more ace the better ,nogi got shiraishi,nanase, erika, hori,asuka, yoda, mizuki at some point
     
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  19. Maeda_Toshiie

    Maeda_Toshiie Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2020
    You mean Moriya Rena? Her bio says that she was in a dance club and did baton twirling. Surely she can't be Berika level.

    Disclaimer: I don't know how the 46/48 concerts work, and I only have a passing knowledge of the wotas and the idol scene including chika idols.

    This is based on my observations, purely anecdotal. Japanese fans (idol and some other segments of the entertainment industry) are typically single oshimen. Being a DD (let alone MD) is not as common, and even frowned upon by some segments of the fandom. Same for doing an oshihen. After all, these are the people who invented the gachikoi koujou and build oshi shrines. They would simply sit down and stare at their phones when their oshi or supported act is not on stage. That said, I find non-JP fans to be more open to the concept of DD, or supporting multiple artistes (be it in the same group or across different groups). I think part of this has to do with kaigai fans, if attending kaigai cons with concerts, would get multiple artistes during the concert. Even more so when travelling to JP for events, they tend to attend multiple events per trip to "maximize" their time there.
     
  20. techizaka

    techizaka Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2019
    Oshimen:
    Oozono Rei
    Jumping on the Rena talk, there's actually demand for her to be center it so I wouldnt be surprised if it comes true, especially since they're going to be a 'brand new' group. Her name always come up in center discussion on matome since the introduction of new 2ki despite having almost no data on her performance. Also saw a poll about who should be next center and she's included as one of the contenders. Fan voting & stuff (on the japanese side) might appear not important but a wimpy ass with no balls management who love to play it safe will definitely take fan ranking & popularity into account when deciding which member to push
     
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