[GENERAL] The Nogizaka46 Thread

Can somebody explain, why Nogizaka has so few views on their MVs while groups who sell way less CDs have more views?

 

I don't think anyone can really explain it. Here are my opinions:

• They have an older audience that doesn't use social media as much
• Their fans are not as rabid in pushing them via view bombing and the like
• The songs aren't that great
• The songs aren't re-listenable
• Fans still think they can get the MVs on their CDs
• Fans still think the MVs are the short version so aren't worth watching
• Nogi isn't as popular as their sales seem to say: it's just wotas buying the CDs in large batches to push the sales numbers

It may be a combination of any and all. YMMV.

 

First, influencer & synco gets 80 and 50 mio views. We used to get 20 mio easily, but not nowadays.
Why?

So many speculation:
1. The trend is changing once again.
General japanese people used to think akb48 is trendy (young girl wants to be like them) > after many scandals & revelations/influence from kpop, youth begin to think them as "cheap, only pretty face" > sakamichi is created and show more cool & elegance image (nogi&keyaki). > Now the trend changed once again, people want good music to listen to. They want idol who can dance & sing. Having a tiktok trending song is what makes a group popular for younger gen. A reason why management try to pick member who can sing nowadays.

Nogizaka has lost its image as a prestigious group after so many aces graduate. Now, only wota bulk buying who stays loyal and some even moved to new, more fresh underground idol group. They don't care about youtube views and probably in older generation who is busy to stream & tech lag. They make nogi stay running tho. This reflect to views on other video appearances like the first take.

2. Our song is already old fashioned, there is no change since 15 yrs ago.
I have read so many fans said how the audio mixing is so old fashioned & cheap. So many critics about the song you can read online. Management needs to comeback 3 times for each group in a year. (About 45 songs in a year) Mass produces song that is just a mix and match from previous song due to time limit. We haven't get in a single breakthrough song this past years.

3. All data from google trend, public influence ranking, etc for "new nogi" is so LOW. Nogi used to have so many CM deals due to its high public recognition, just watch old video of maiyan or naachan walking on street, people recognize them. But now, members can comfortably go to tsukiji or asakusa without getting mobbed. It's like the early nogi era.

I think management should decide, whether they want to cater new young generation or staying true to old & already established idols culture. (I bet all of you who read my post, not in their teens)

I have read a debate about inoue nagi naked photo book, one side against it and the other support it. The market is just different. Positioning is important, and losing the stand to cater which side of demographic will just lead to fail campaigns

 

Like many people here already said, Nogi audience doesn´t care about views and it has been a while since their last hit song. Nogizaka has been like that for a while now, there was a time Hinatazaka comeback had more views than Nogi despite being released days after. Nowadays only songs that are hits manage to get 20+ million views on youtube, a lot of people switched to tiktok.

Nogizaka sales will stay stable as long as they have a loyal wota fanbase buying dozens of CDs.

Example: A Love Live song called 愛♡スクリ~ム!(Ice Cream) recently went viral on tiktok and as a consequence, the audio has 27 million views on youtube (A lot of people use Youtube Music) and it became the most viewed Love Live song in the platform. Still, that´s an exception for Love Live. As most of their clips have about 1-4 million and they have many with less than that. Love Live also is far from Nogizaka numbers in CD sales.

TL;DR: CD Sales ≠ Youtube Views

 

@Vanbun01

1
What do you mean that the trend has changed and people want to listen to good music? That K-pop groups have better songs? There I have to disagree, because the music is so different that it's difficult to compare. Furthermore I have to say that the average K-pop idol doesn't sing any better than the average J-pop idol. K-pop is far too often reduced to the good singers. Also, there are J-Pop idol groups that sing better than almost every K-Pop idol group and yet their success is not gigantic. So great singing doesn't always seem to help.

2
There I also have to disagree. In recent years there has been a trend in Japan towards idol groups who do not sound at all like the new Korean sound and instead also sound musically ‘old-fashioned’. For example, the many groups with a cute concept that have become quite popular in a short time.
Also, if Nogi sounded like K-pop groups or even dressed and danced like them (god forbid), it would no longer be Nogi.

3
Perhaps the only reliable source of popularity is the number of attendance at the concerts?

 

1. It is not about what you think or I think, so many surveys (tv doc or candid youtube survey on street) about idols state that many young people in Japan think kpop idol can generally sing better than jpop idols. Even the idols themselves said that way (eri, sakura, nako) Of course there is also jpop idols who can sing. Can you tell me many name of jpop idols who can sing really well?

2. What I mean by old fashion is something like the result of mass produce (45 new song a year) that ends up like a cheap mix and match from previous song. Jpop is afterall "old fashion", they stay the same in their core and doesn't change its sound to feel more western like kpop. It's a sellable point for jpop.

3. No, I said nogizaka has lost its popularity to general public and now survive by the mercy of loyal wota fans & nostalgic feeling. I don't think concert attendance is the only way to show "real popularity". Japanese likes to go to concerts. The ticket price vs their monthly income makes them enjoying a concert is just a weekend activity for them. (I know some kpop group that isn't that popular in Korea and even Japan can sold out their venue in Japan, their cd sales is lower than sakamichi, but their concert always sold out) thinking like when a local celebrity attend an international artist concert. They're not really a core fans, just enjoying the cloud/festival.
Even with that, nogi has decrease its capacity, they used to perform in dome and even books two stadium for a single concert. This year, only sakurazaka does the dome tour. (Yet, in some area they still perform in an arena capacity)

 

1. Since there are hundreds of idol groups in Japan, it is inevitable that the good singers are not all in one group, but spread across the many groups, I think: This can give the impression that there are virtually no good singing idols.
I could give numerous examples for good singing Japanese idols, but since i'm probably not allowed to advertise other groups too much in a Nogizaka forum, I'll just give two examples.

Firstly, Shiritsu Ebisu Chugaku's Kashiwagi Hinata
【ソロライブ】「愛のレンタル」 from 「柏木ひなた生誕ソロライブ『-Interlude-』」 - YouTube

Secondly, Hirota Aika from the same group
寝起きで Ado「逆光」を ぁぃぁぃが 歌ってみた。｜ウタ from ONE PIECE FILM RED - YouTube

2. I mean, J-pop is also predominantly Western influences. But it takes its influences from the, in my opinion, best periods of Western mainstream pop (1960 to mid-90s). While K-pop takes its influences from Western mainstream pop of the last 25 years. and I personally think the last 25 years have largely been a low point.
Edit: To make an unusual comparison, even the very complex European art music of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries was also mass produced and yet was so good that it went down in history and we can still hear it everywhere today. So I don't think mass production is a problem. But the management just doesn't take those compsers who are able to keep the Nogizaka sound and modernize it at the same time.

 

@Lindt
1. Yep, just as what you said, it is the comparison of members who can sing vs can not sing in a group. In Japan, idols doesn't need to be able to sing, while in kpop, you will get bashed if you can't sing. Your example also showing a more band / soloist setup, not idols who sing while dancing a complex movement.

2. For composers, I think it is always a problem in established company. There is "nepotism" inside and to gain more profit, they always use specific composers again and again.(eg: sm entertainment scandal where insider told media that the founder lee soo man always use his new build child company to provide songs for their artists to gain more profit from song loyalty) instead of providing the best song for their artists, it becomes a media to gain more profit from that greedy pig. They monopoly all the song list.

IMO, new gen have tried to boost sales by doing a lot of PR, like going to campus or street singing. But the core problem is again... their song doesn't catch general public attention.

 

I promise you that they hardly sing any worse when dancing. But I chose solo songs because they only sing one sentence each in the group songs and that wouldn't be enough to judge a voice. Though someone who sings like them can't suddenly sound like an amateur when dancing if dancing is part of their profession, the level is too high for that.

And what I would like to add: even though Japanese idol groups usually only have a few good singers, I know several groups in which every member can sing (very) well. Unfortunately, these groups are often not as well known as they should be.

 

The Sashi-P groups and the kawaii lab groups are the ones I was referring to above when I talked about the success of groups with a cute (very Japanese) concept. One could also add the very Japanese group Atarashii Gakko.

An unread reason for the decline in popularity, I think: there have been more and more idol groups in Japan for about 10 years. I follow 18 groups myself. Some people perhaps also go from Nogizaka to one of the countless new Japanese groups.

 

Yep, Atarashii Gakko can sing. Their song is catchy. For =love... well sasshi is something, isn't she? She knows the market, she knows otaku's well.

you can't deny the influence of kpop tho, since you, yourself said

But I won't say kpop is better than jpop or vice versa, everything has its market, that's why I said above

There is a big market who enjoys both kpop and jpop. (And this might be what management initial idea to pursue) But every thing has its risk, just like what @Mana said, they might lose their core fans when changing too much. (As @Mana might be a representative of feeling from old time wota fans)

There was a time when jpop group even taken South Korea by storm, jpop idols are worshipped by Koreans. Now it's the opposite. But trend always change.. so who knows what will happen in the future.

 

Nogi ranked 2nd in last year's concert attendance ranking
Also they ranked 15th in a recent survey in Japan's Top 300 brands

I'd like to think they are doing fine at the moment.

 

It's important for a 'Song' become trendy, catchy, and original in Japan music industry , but it is not easy and demanding especially for idol groups.

Also, Youtube has change their rule of 'Views' time by time. In the past, you can watch video on youtube many times and become countable from one account for short period, but not today.

However, it's all matters of subjectivity that a song become more valuable or not. As for exemple, in 2023 everyone now, that Yoasobi's 'Idol' become trending, not only in Japan even world-- ofcourse Youtube too, cannot win grand prix of Japan Record Award. Lost to Mrs. Green Apple. Also in 2018, Nogizaka46's 'Synchronicity' win grand prix of Japan record award, beat that Yonezu Kenshi's' Lemon (No. 1 Youtube viewers even until now).

For the last, in recent time I believe even great song cannot stand itself, they pull together. Radwimps, Mrs. Green Apple, LiSA, Yoasobi etc, collaborate with anime, drama, and movies make their song become more popular.

 

When i was young, it was definitely easier to recognise who was popular. You looked at the CD rankings and that was it.

A question came to my mind during the discussion. Why are South Korean groups actually called idols although everything about them is totally different from Japanese idols?

Apart from that, I have found something solid that shows that the importance of K-pop is not as great as many assume.
Here is a survey in which 120,000 members of ‘Generation Z’ took part. They were asked what is trending among them. 『Z世代が選ぶ2024年下半期トレンドランキング』を発表！ | 株式会社N.D.Promotionのプレスリリース

The important results are the following two.

Trending idol


Trending song

 

as long as they are still making profit, nogizaka as a group is still a solid brand. Youtube views doesn't really matter much. We will know if the ship is sinking when many members are graduating without the replacement of new generation. (or even if the ace new members are graduating or leaving the group and pursue another opportunity outside the group). Because members are the insider who knows how bad the management is inside, not us, fans lol

I think for now, Nogizaka is still fine.

even the falling akb still sells a lot compare to more underground group and have a new theater (new investment, so investor still thinks AKB is profitable)

 

I also think that currently Nogi is doing fine. This is of course based on my layman's logic: they still sell quite a lot of CDs, people still attend their concert, the girls seem to get invited to other programs (wearing Nogi uniform, therefore bringing Nogi brand), they still recruit new members etc.
That being said, like I mentioned in my other post, it is interesting that looking at the CD sales figures in Stage48.net wiki pages it is quite obvious that the numbers are lower from pre pandemic sale figures. That's why I asked in that post whether this is due to the fact that habits change (most people are turning to streaming instead of buying physical media), or shrinking 'core fans'. If this is simply due to changing habits, then I think Nogi's popularity is still OK (I have no idea about how much less/more profit they get when people turn to streaming, so their profitability might change). However, if it is due to shrinking 'core fans' then perhaps there is some issue of decreasing popularity (this is blatant oversimplification, since this could also mean changing demographics: the core fans are leaving but new fans (streamers) are increasing).
In any case, I hope Nogi will still be profitable enough for management to keep them along.

 

Nogi is still popular, of course it is. But we also have to realise that Nogizaka46 and the Sakamichi series groups are 'legacy' groups now like AKB48 and Morning Musume are. You can't be the fresh, relevant, exciting group forever.

For my money the standard of Nogi songs has fallen in recent years, and I'm not quite sold on the evolution of the musical direction which accompanied the generational change. But I don't think that's all it comes down to.

No group with rotating members has ever come through the process of generational transition away from 1st generation members more popular than they were.

The public taste is always evolving too, and always as a reaction away from what came before it.

=Love, Cutie Street and Fruits Zipper is a reaction away from Nogi the same as Nogi was a reaction away from AKB. AKB blew up after several wilderness years for idols in Japan, Nogi was a reaction away from the more "cringe" elements of AKBs image and towards something more refined and elegant, and the new batch of trending groups is a move away from that (and kpop) towards groups that capture the feel of the underground, indie idol scene

 

So, I was thinking about Nogi and came to the question of how to define an idol? There are Japanese idols who have extremely highly trained skills such as Ikuchan on the piano. Then there are idols who have no skills at all. Then there are all kinds of idol groups. Some who can't dance, some who can dance excellently, some who can't sing, some in which every member can sing very well. etc. etc. And then there are ‘alternative’ and ‘anti’ idols.

What is your definition of an idol?