How come K-pop fans don't branch out to AKB48 and J-pop in general?

Disclaimer: This post is in no way trying to antagonize the AKB48 fandom or J-pop fandom. Also I didn't know where to set up such a thread. Also I didn't see anyone coming up with such a topic like this on any remaining J-pop forum or on Stage48. So I was brave to create such a thread.

I was inspired by this thread on MAL and it kinda bothers me and some J-pop fans. As a fan of both Japanese and Korean culture, it's been acknowledged for the last few years that Korean pop music or K-pop has been gaining big grounds outside of Asia. A lot of people thought it might help other Asian pop like J-pop and also AKB48 to get more fans outside of Asia due to K-pop global popularity. But sadly this is not the case.

I've been with K-pop fandom for the last 3 and half year, and I've been observing and noticing that K-pop fans aren't branching out to J-pop and AKB48 in general. The worse part is that many of these K-pop fans were formerly J-pop fans (that include AKB48) at one time, and majority of these former J-pop turned K-pop fans never went back to J-pop after they became K-pop fans. There are a lot of questions that are left unanswered why J-pop fandom never grew despite K-pop growing popularity around the world. I even ask a similar question on Quora and no one can give a definitive answer why J-pop fandom are not sharing the same passion as K-pop fandom. I'll explain in more detail about what I'm trying to point out:

AKB48/48G group not accepted amongst international mainstream, yet their K-pop counterpart get accepted

I think last year or 2 years ago, some of you I talked to on this forum have said AKB48 or any of their sister groups would never be accepted outside of Japan/Asia because there's too many members for people to follow. Well, this may need another re-assessment because South Korea for the last few months have been debuting "mega" groups in K-pop, read this article:

'Mega' is the new buzzword in K-pop scene

As the article said above, there's been a lot of new K-pop groups coming out with 12 or more members, some on the same scale as any of the smaller units on 48G. Just to let you know, these K-pop mega group are getting a lot of buzz and fans outside of Asia, in other word they're getting more accepted amongst international mainstream fans outside of Asia then AKB48 or their sister group.

How many of you have gotten chance to listen or get to know WSJN/Cosmic Girls, a 12 member girl group consist of Korean and Chinese members?


if the video does not show watch the video here

Well this group is getting a lot of international fans outside of Asia.

How many of you know or heard of Produce 101? Watch this video below:


if the video does not show watch the video here

Does this remind you of AKB48? A lot of people have compared Produce 101 to AKB48 because of the number of girls in it. After Produce 101 ended, it led to the creation of a newly debut group, I.O.I. The Produce 101-AKB48 comparison has led to some fans of J-pop and AKB48 accused Produce 101 of ripping off AKB48 and also accusing K-pop fandom of double standard and not being open-minded. I'll use this conversation as an example:


Because of K-pop creating Mega groups, there's been speculation that a K-pop 48G may not be all that crazy.

So I'm worried that this may cause more tension between J-pop and K-pop fandom because of the alleged double standard bias that J-pop fans are accusing K-pop fandom of. Of course, this is not the only thing that is the issue with J-pop fandom, I'll explain in a second post after this.

But here's the question for all of you: If K-pop mega groups like I.O.I and WSJN/Cosmic Girls are internationally accepted, then why is AKB48 not? Do you think there are double standard or some form of bias when it comes to K-pop and J-pop?

 

Part 2 of my post

OK, I'll give you my assessment, problems regarding J-pop fandoms and my thought on the K-pop fandom not branching out to J-pop and AKB48.

Accessbility being the main issue

I will acknowledge that J-pop do have accessibility issues, and some of you have mentioned this. This lead to J-pop (and AKB48) fandom not getting any big international growth compared to their K-pop. I get frustrated that J-pop are not made available on Itunes and Spotify compared to their K-pop counterpart. But what really baffle me is that J-pop fans didn't unite and be vocal about it. In 2013, when Youtube block K-pop (yes it did really happen), K-pop fans in US and worldwide raise hell and didn't take no for an answer, this lead to online campaign and the hashtag #giveuskpop. I mean I didn't see this in J-pop:



And I definitely know that AKB48 fans didn't do something like this when YouTube block their music videos and some of their sister groups video too.

So here's the question: when AKB48 (and other J-pop) music videos was blocked on Youtube, why didn't J-pop fandom unite and do the same like K-pop fandom did in 2013. How come I didn't see a call for #giveusjpop campaign?

This lead me to this...

J-pop fandom not being unified, and J-pop fans not branching out to other J-music:

I remember a thread from Onehallyu asking people if they want Japanese music to be more known globally, majority of them voted "yes". So why aren't J-pop fandom are working hard as their K-pop counterpart to made this true.

There was an article I read from AramaJapan which said that J-pop fandom are not united like their K-pop counterpart:

INTERNATIONAL JAPANESE MUSIC FANS NOT RALLYING BEHIND DEMPAGUMI.INC TO WIN BEST WORLDWIDE ACT: ASIA. IS THIS A SIGN OF A LACK OF UNITY?

to quote the article above:

And to back up the article:

Why is there a lack of Jpop fans internationally compared to Kpop?

Lack of community/unity among J-pop fans?

So the reason for the lack of unity is because of different taste for J-music genre. Remember Japanese music is diverse and this led to infighting amongst fandom, to quote the Arama article again:

But this doesn't make sense to me. Because I've seen K-pop fans branching out to other genre in Korean music, I'll cite this Yonhap News article about K-pop fandom branching out and I'll quote:

Also a 2014 article from Kpopstarz also back this up and I'll quote from the interview:

It's not only K-hip hop, but K-pop fans have branch out to K-indies too:

Best of Both Worlds : Korean Pop and Korean Indie

When K-Drama Meets Korean Indie

So here's the questions: if K-pop fans are able to branch out to K-hip hop and K-indies, then why didn't fans of J-rock and visual Kei branch out to J-pop and AKB48? Did J-pop (and AKB48) fans branch out to other genre in J-music? Do you think J-pop fandom suffer from lack of unity compared to K-pop?

Speaking of branching out...

K-pop fans not branching out to J-pop when many of K-pop fans were former J-pop fans:

Despite K-pop idols singing in Japanese and record their hit Korean songs in Japanese, they don't branch out to J-pop. I know it's hard to believe I mention on my part 1 post but a lot of K-pop fans don't branch out to J-pop:

How come lots of KPOP fans dont branch out into JPOP,CPOP,ETC

However, I've seen K-pop fans branching out to Taiwanese pop (thanks to Taiwanese dramas gaining popularity outside of Asia) and Thai Pop (probably because it sound similar to Kpop).

The idea of of K-pop fans not branching out to J-pop is somewhat ironic because many of these K-pop fans were formerly J-pop fans (meaning some of them were former AKB48 fans):

Are most K-pop fans "old" J-pop fans?

There was an article from 2012 (which is no longer there) that talked about that many of K-pop fans were formerly J-pop fans. To make this more sadder: Many (probably majority) of these former J-pop fans turned K-pop fans never went back to J-pop after they became K-pop fans. I also think these former J-pop fans that became K-pop fans probably never introduce J-pop (and AKB48) to the current generation of K-pop fans.

So here's another set of questions: How come K-pop fans don't branch out to J-pop yet they can slowly branch out to Taiwanese and Thai pop without any issues? How come K-pop fans that were formerly J-pop/AKB48 fans never introduced J-pop to current K-pop fans? Why did majority of former J-pop fans that became K-pop fans never went back to J-pop after they became K-pop fans?

One more thing....

J-pop (and AKB48) concept and MVs is too weird to be accepted outside of Japan and Asia:

OK, now I was told that J-pop (that include AKB48) was too weird to be accepted by western audiences. It might be true, but here's the problem: K-pop has some of the weirdest concept and music video out there too, and they got accepted by western audiences and K-pop fanbases? I mean look at Big Bang:


if the video does not show watch the video here


if the video does not show watch the video here

2 of their music video "out-weird" any J-pop and AKB48 PVs I've seen and yet they have a big international fanbases outside of Asia. 2 of their music video I linked above have over 100 million views. They're recognized by international media like Time magazine.

I can find more weird K-pop video that out-weird or just weird on the same level as J-pop and AKB48. Ask me, and I'll post them up and you can decide if they weirder then any AKB48 or J-pop PVs you've ever seen.


if the video does not show watch the video here

Again, J-pop fans have also accused K-pop fandom of not accepting J-pop no matter how weird it is, and saying that "if they were Korean or K-pop, you would accept them!!!"

Last question for this thread: If J-pop was too weird to be accepted by western audiences, then how did Big Bang and other K-pop that have weird music video and concept got accepted by western audiences?

 

It's simple.

1) Back in like 2009-2012, yes you could say that most kpop fans where originally jpop fans, but now however, the vast majority of kpop fans where fans of other western groups like Little Mix, One Direction, and 5th Harmony. Kpop fans like mainstream music and Kpop music is very similar to mainstream western music so it's easier for kpop fans to like. "KPOP" has become something that has branched out into Hip hop and indie korean music as well, both of which you can find in common mainstream western music. JPOP is quite a wide spectrum like kpop, however the most popular form of jpop is idols. Groups like EXILE/E-girls are more popular with kpop fans because the type of music they release is more mainstream than the typical idol song you would hear from AKB. That's also why songs like River, Beginner, and BwT are popular songs with kpop fans.

2) The term "idols" is different in kpop and jpop. AKB is an idol group. SNSD is an idol group. KPOP idols spend years training to perfection before they even get the chance to debut. When they do debut, it's all about competing with the other groups to gain popularity.
JPOP idols debut bare boned and spent years training and improving while they're in the group, then graduate when they're at their highest level. Jpop idols tend to compete within their own groups (akb being the most relevant example).

If K-pop mega groups like I.O.I and WSJN/Cosmic Girls are internationally accepted, then why is AKB48 not?

AKB and I.O.I are entirely different concepts. AKB is a group filled with 100's of girls essentially competing with each other to be part of the top 16 members of the group, who are pretty much the "face" and most relevant members. I.O.I is a group created from a bunch of girls competing to be part of one whole group. "AKB" is it's own product, I.O.I is the final product of Produce 101. You can't compare them because at the end of the day, I.O.I is the same as a typical girl group. AKB is a whole other concept.

if K-pop fans are able to branch out to K-hip hop and K-indies, then why didn't fans of J-rock and visual Kei branch out to J-pop and AKB48?
This does happen though. In KPOP, kpop groups themselves branch out into other genre's, like Block B and BTS with their "Hip Hop" concept, and Akdong Musician and their "K-Indie" concept. By doing this, it's a lot easier for a fan to look at other genre's like khip hop and kindie because they have already been introduced to the concept by their own groups. With JPOP, jpop groups also do this, like Lovendor and Scandal having their "Rock band "concept" and Babymetal and their "Metal" concept. This is also why you get fans of Jpop idols also being fans of J-rock bands. That's also why Ladybaby and Babymetal is so successful, because it introduces and brings Rock and Idol music together.

But wither way, why would you expect a fan of AKB48, an idol group, to become a fan of a Visual Kei or J-rock group? Would you expect a fan of Kings of Leon or Deftones to later become a fan of One Direction and Union J? It's an unlikely scenario. In some cases this happens, but that just depends on someone's personal interest in music genre's.

Did J-pop (and AKB48) fans branch out to other genre in J-music?
They do. I know tones of Jpop fans who like idol groups such as AKB, Morning Musume, and Nogizaka, who also like groups and artists like EXILE, AAA, Hilchyrme, flumpool and Sekai no Owari.

Do you think J-pop fandom suffer from lack of unity compared to K-pop?
They don't "suffer" from it. Every group has their own fandom, but where is the benefit of being united with another groups fandom? Why should an AKB fan unite with a Angerme, Cheeky Parade, BiSH and Little Glee monster fan if their own group and their own oshimen won't benefit from that unity at all? KPOP fans tend to have fandom friendships like Cassiopeia and ELF, or Shawols and MeU (fx) because those groups and fans benefit from that unity by helping each other's groups and supporting them. This tends to only happen with fandoms who are fans of similar groups. Name me a Shinee fan who doesn't also like Infinite, DBSK, DGNA and/or Seventeen. JPOP fans have that unity as well. I know many AAA fans who are also a fan of Generations, Da-Ice, XOX, and lol. Like with kpop, those fandoms unite to promote each others groups and they all benefit from it.

AKB in general have that in their own bubble. AKB, SKE, NMB, HKT, and all the other 48/46 groups unite with each other when needed, whether through competition or through support. Look at when Miichan got into that scandal and the whole world was looking down on AKB, i don't think i saw one fan not defending AKB.

In short, KPOP fans don't branch out into JPOP because they have all they want in a group in kpop, when they want something else, they find jpop (or cpop, thai pop or whatever). The same thing happens with Jpop fans who want to see more from a group.

 

I wasn't talking about concept and final product, I'm aware of these 2 being different. Maybe I should clarified on my question: AKB48 and 48G are big girl group. So is I.O.I and WSJN, although they are 11 and 12 member girl group compared to 100 girls of AKB48/48G. I was told 2 years ago that people outside of Asia wouldn't accept a big group like AKB48 because of the big number in the group. Now 2 years later when K-pop debut mega groups, they got widely accepted amongst international mainstream music fans. They weren't turn off by the huge # of members. But I don't see fans of WJSN and I.O.I branching out to AKB48 or any of J-pop mega groups. So this is where some J-pop fans have accused K-pop fans of double standard and bias for anything K-pop and Korean and looking down on Japanese content.

OK so they do branch out to other genre in J-music. I asked this because beside my observation, I talk to a person on Entasia (another Asian pop forum), this person made this claim about J-pop fandom:

So @minaeshi beside branching out, you're saying that a J-pop fan can follow more then 2 groups, is that correct? Is this user from Entasia wrong or correct on that? Just for the record, K-pop fans can follow more then 10 groups. I myself follow 12 different K-pop groups.

I'll explain, because I know several K-pop fans that used to be fans of J-rock and visual Kei (and they never went back to it after they became K-pop fans). So if these former visual Kei/J-rock fan became of K-pop why didn't they branch out to AKB48? I think there are many people like that.

I started out as a fan of Girls Generation/SNSD and Wonder Girls (which do mostly bubblegum pop) then I branch out to 2NE1, Big Bang, BTS/Bangtan Boys (mostly Hip-hop). I listen to mostly bubblegum pop but the hip-hop/rap didn't turn me off from liking Big Bang, and BTS. I started checking out some K-indies like Hyukoh and K-hip hop like Dynamic Duo. I would branch out to J-pop if they made it more accessible.

OK, that's good to know. But it still doesn't answer my question: What were the whole J-pop fandom doing when Dempagumi.inc needed help for MTV EMA and allowed Jane Zhang to win Best Asia act (again, K-pop worked really hard to get Bangtan Boys to win that award) and letting Dempagumi.inc lose. Why were there J-pop fans that didn't wanted to vote for Dempagumi.inc because as the AramaJapan article said "they don’t like them and / or because they give Japanese music a bad image." If J-pop fans are united, why would they make comments like that and not back the group.

How come J-pop fans didn't unite to make J-pop more accessible when K-pop fandom did this in 2013. Why didn't J-pop fandom "raise hell" when J-pop became less accessible? When K-pop got block on Youtube in 2013, they created #giveuskpop online and K-pop no longer got block on Youtube, but when AKB48 got blocked on Youtube, J-pop fans didn't do the same, I didn't see a #giveusjpop or #giveusakb48 campaign online.

I'm not denying that, but as AramaJapan article said, I don't see that type of united fandom defending a single idol in J-pop. Did international fans of Morning Musume, E-girls, and other J-pop girl group came to defend Miichan?

When I say united fandom, I'll give you an example. When T-ara went up against One Direction on Billboard fan army face off last year. Every K-pop fans whether they're Sones, Wonderfuls, Shawols, ELFs, Blackjacks, VIPs, BABYs, A.R.M.Ys, and other K-pop fans regardless which group they're fan of all came to back up Queens (T-ara's fan name), T-ara doesn't have a big fanbases compared to Girls Generation/SNSD or 2NE1, but in the end T-ara beat One Direction and it was all because K-pop fandom unite to help T-ara to win. I never seen this type of united fandom in J-pop. T-ara beating One Direction on Billboard contrast to how international J-pop fan didn't help or back Dempagumi.inc.

There still a lot of unanswered questions regarding J-pop fandom/fanbases.

 

I've been a fan of kpop for years, i know it's history and i know how it's different from jpop.

1)

Big KPOP groups have been around for a while. Super Junior? 15 member group? Hello? One of the most successful groups in KPOP history? The problem has never been how huge the group is, it's the concept those groups have. I.O.I, EXO, Seventeen, and WSJN are huge groups but they work because they aren't a rotational group. They are all solid groups. AKB is a rotational group. Members come and go, members get dropped and pushed. It's a lot easier for someone to learn the names of 12 members and then follow that same line up for years, than for someone to learn 16 members faces and then have to learn 1 or 2 new faces every single when someone gets dropped or graduates.

Super Junior was originally supposed to be a rotational group like Morning Musume and AKB are. It didn't work because fans didn't like the idea of members leaving and being replaced by someone else. That's why fans hated Kyuhyun so much, because they fought that by him joining, someone would have to leave (that someone would have been Heechul or Kangin). When Kibum left suddenly it only made the situation worse.

Look at After School. They have the same system as Morning Musume. They rotate and members graduate. The reason why they aren't as popular as they should be (they should be SNSD level right now) is because fans leave along with their member. When Kahi left, her fans went with her, same as when Bekah left. Lizzy, Kaeun and E-young's fanbases weren't enough to keep the fandom big so the group got less popular.

Fans of groups of I.O.I and WJSN don't branch out to AKB for that exact reason.

2)

Of course it's correct. Just because one user says that doesn't make it law lol. I have friends who like Hello Project and follow Morning Musume, Angerme, Country Girls and Cute all at the same time. I know AKB fans who follow all the 48 groups. There is no rule saying you can't follow more than 2 groups. The difference is, many Jpop fans invest a lot of their time into one group and one oshimen because that's all they're interested in. If you want to follow 1 jpop group, fine. If you want to follow 12, more power to ya. I for one follow tons of jpop and kpop groups however, i don't invest my time into all of them equally. The same goes for kpop fans. You might be a fan of SHINee, EXO, Seventeen, Vixx, Beast, Infinite, and Teen Top and actively follow all of their activities, but do you buy every album, concert dvd, merch, and other random bits for each and every group? It's unlikely.

3)

Preference. I used to be a huge Rock fan before I found out about Jpop. Now I rarely listen to Rock. I know fans who were huge fans of RnB but after finding KPOP they rarely listen to RnB anymore. It all comes down to what you gain and lose interest in. It goes both ways. Some people are just not interested in AKB. Next.

4)

Why should they? The difference between kpop and jpop fans is that most jpop fans don't see the point in supporting a another group that they have no interest in just to see them do well. Why spend ages investing your time in voting for a group you don't like, when you could be watching or listening to a group you do like? Kpop fans have this idea that by making kpop groups win awards like Best Asia act it puts them on the international radar. The kpop industry is a very small one when compared to JPOP, so jpop fans don't need that kind of platform to benefit their groups.

Jpop has ALWAYS been less accessible. The reason being is that JPOP groups like AKB survive on their CD sales. Companies want you to buy the CD to watch the music video, which is why they only post half the MV's onto youtube. KPOP companies don't care about that. Which is why you get full MV's BEFORE the CD comes out. That's their promotional gimmick, so when things started getting blocked on Youtube, kpop fans started to Protest.
With JPOP, fans didn't protest because it's not a huge deal. Instead they sent messages directly to the companies and let them sort it out. That's how Hello Project and Universal Music were able to continue uploading videos.

5)

Well for starters, I think you shouldn't take AramaJapan's word for everything because they're not even a reliable source.
Anyway, as I said before, WHY should Morning Musume, E-girls and other Jpop group fans defend Miichan? When Bom got into her drug scandal did SNSD and Sistar fans defend her? When Sulli had a scandal with Choiza did 4minute, Apink and Fiestar fans defend her? No. Did they all make comments? Yes but defend them? No. And again why should they. Sulli and Bom have nothing to do with other girl groups and their fans, so why should fans of other groups feel the need to support a girl from another group unless they are a fan of the girl and group themselves?

Miichans situation had no affect on Morning Musume or Egirls and their fans. Most fans of those groups DO know Miichan and AKB and they did make comments but to go out of their way to defend her? That's a stretch.

They're not unanswered. Its simple. Kpop group fans like the idea of ANY kpop group doing well against a popular western group. Why? because it puts KPOP as a whole in the spotlight, and allows for other groups to get recognition too. That in turn will benefit their own group. For jpop that doesn't happen because the spotlight would only be on that one group alone, and not kpop as a whole. As I said before, The japanese music industry is HUGE, so much more bigger than the korean music industry. There is no benefit in a fan helping another group succeed.

 

@mdo7
I think you are caring waaay to much about this
It shouldn't bother you at all...

But I will give my response:

A. Why do you care if AKB fans care about dempagumi, arashi, news, ikimonogakari, e-girls, .... or anyone else?
Who cares if Dempagumi needs help to progress in some random MTV Asia competition that nobody cares about? I don't, and I don't know any other Japanese people who does either. There is no need for Japanese fans to "promote Japanese music outside of Japan", because Japan is pretty much a completely self sufficient music industry. So why would any 48g fan care if someone in Vietnam loves BabyMetal?

People like their own groups that they enjoy, there is absolutely no need to care about other groups. Why should they care about them? Because they are also Japanese? Because they are of the same nationality as AKB? So Americans who like Miley Cyrus should also care about improving the worldwide recognition of Metallica now? That makes no sense. If Korean fans want to care about it, then good for them. There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is for anyone to look at other countries fans and be like "haha, why don't they care like we do! This proves we are better!". That is just stupid, and if they think that way, I feel sorry for them.

B. Two of the three new kpop groups you mentioned have 10-12 members. The entire 48 group has over 300 active members. More if you add in Nogizaka and Keyakizaka. 10 ≠ 300. And you can't really say they are completely separate, with all these systems that turn AKB into an umbrella of an entire system of 46/48 group, basically you can count member number as around 300+. So they are right, it is harder to get into 48g than a 10 person group. Just because they don't like to pay attention to 300+ 48group, doesn't mean if a new SM group with 100 members (still ⅓ members) debuts with music they like, that the are not allowed to like it.

C. The music. As almost everyone on that other forum you posted pointed out, Korean pop music is much more Americanized or Hip-Hop style than Jpop. Jpop is a very distinct sound, so people who like it will like it and those who don't won't. Musical taste, by the way, is basically the answer to your entire question.

D. Accessibility, let's be honest. The Japanese music industry is pretty much the only one besides the American music industry in the world that can completely disregard foreign countries (and maybe China? I don't know anything about them though). They make so much money inside their own country, there is no need to go out. Korea is nowhere near, like a million miles away, from being a completely self-sufficient music industry. They make a lot of money from foreign fans, whereas Japanese music industry probably makes over 95% (I just made that number up, but it's probably close) income from inside of Japan.

E. If you look at members again, Kpop and AKB are two extremely different things. Kpop groups train their members for years before debut, so they are as close to perfect as they can be, in singing, dancing, and their bodies. AKB doesn't do this at all. AKB has many, many members who are not great at singing, dancing, or having "muscular fit bodies". And the AKB fandom in Japan doesn't want all members to be perfect at singing/dancing/bodies. Only on foreign forums/websites have I seen anyone care about this when speaking of an AKB member. So even the fandom's have different preferences for the types of members they want to see.

F. It also depends on where you live, in America, nobody knows what kpop and jpop is (besides the one hit wonder, PSY). If you are listening to either in your car with the windows rolled down, people will probably look at you like you are crazy lol.

But mainly among the Asian community, are there more Korean entertainment fans in America than Japanese entertainment fans? Of course, much more. But that is because there are tens of thousands more Korean/Korean-Americans that live in America than Japanese/Japanese-Americans. Its not even close.

 

I know about Super Junior and EXO. But SM took a big risk by creating those 2 (same thing for Girls Generation/SNSD). Now SM is going all out with their new boy group, NCT. It paid off, I guess that's why Pledis was ambitious enough to create Seventeen. Starship with WSJN/Cosmic Girl.

But yes thank you for mentioning rotation and graduation, I almost forgot about that. But I'm not 100% sure if that's the turn off from K-pop fans branching out to J-pop.

That is true, and I won't disagree with you on that. Although this is an exception, Nine Muses although they have a rotation/graduation system similar to After School, they didn't seem to lose popularity despite member changes (I miss Sera and Lee Sem when they left the group) judging from one of their last album made it on Billboard World album chart.

That's possible, but it's not going to stop some J-pop fans accusing K-pop fans of being hypocritical of J-pop but giving K-pop a free pass whenever K-pop does something similar to J-pop. I wouldn't be surprised if some rabid J-pop fans verbally attack a former J-pop turned K-pop fans calling them "traitors" and the like.

And As I mention, I stated that there are international J-pop fans that want J-pop to get the same global recognition like their K-pop counterpart are getting. But they can't pull off the same unity like K-pop are doing. Also regarding the one I bolded, because K-pop fandom did this. I've already mentioned about how K-pop fandom unite to help T-ara win against One Direction (even the one that didn't care about T-ara also helped and contributed to their victory). Why can't J-pop do the same? If there are international K-pop fans that didn't care about T-ara helped them win against One Direction, then why didn't J-pop fans do the same for Dempagumi.inc? If majority of J-pop fans wanted to help J-pop to be more globally known, then helping and backing Dempagumi.inc would've been a smart way not saying "I'm not backing them because I don't like them" or "they give Japanese music bad name", I didn't see any of that from K-pop when they help T-ara or Girls Generation or Super Junior.

So J-pop fans didn't learn anything from the 2013 Universal Music K-pop incident. At a time AKB48 PVs are being blocked on Youtube, I'm surprised none of you have launch a similar campaign.

Majority and a lot of international K-pop fans (even one that are not blackjacks) came to defend her from immature fans and haters. I would defend a member of a girl or boy group that I'm not even a fan of from slender and lie that tabloid or haters would taunt them. A lot of international K-pop fans are like that too.

Actually it could help J-pop if one group get recognized. I mean after Psy's Gangnam Style went viral, a lot of people that never watch K-pop suddenly discovered other K-pop artists too. I'm not making this up.

to quote Billboard:

If Psy was able to get a lot of American watching K-pop, then the same could applied to J-pop. But it's too bad that K-pop is dominating the popularity.

Japan music market maybe big, but South Korea is now becoming somewhat of a market for non-Korean foreign artists to enter there according to an article from Korea Times. So South Korea is becoming a bigger deal to foreign artists.

@kyoto48☀︎☂

Sadly, when K-pop became more popular and accepted amongst mainstream around the world, it caused people to look down on J-pop as in give it negative reception, J-pop remain a niche while K-pop is becoming more mainstream on a global scale. That's what I mean by K-pop fans will not branch out to J-pop. I already stated that many K-pop fans that were formerly J-pop never went back to J-pop. So in other word:

K-pop=accepted amongst international audiences
J-pop=look down upon and being called weird

That's why there are some international J-pop fans that resented K-pop because they feel like that people look at J-pop as too weird that and factor in that K-pop fans don't branch out to J-pop, that make it worse.

Actually, you're far from correct, I guess you never heard of Billboard K-town which came out in 2013. I guess you didn't hear about US Itunes store having it's own K-pop genre that came out last year. If K-pop was not well-known in the US then Billboard wouldn't have created K-town and Itunes US will not create a special store for K-pop. J-pop and AKB48 so far have not get this same type of reception, again this is not going to get along well with current J-pop fans.

There are other evidences that K-pop has been gaining more mainstream attention in USA:

Bangtan Boys and Block B played during a NFL game

4minute's Hate being played during NCAA game

Since last year, SiriusXM Radio has been giving K-pop airplay on a nationwide scale:


if the video does not show watch the video here


if the video does not show watch the video here


if the video does not show watch the video here

There are more video like this.

So far only one J-pop tune got played on SiriusXM Radio (from what I was told), so this is going to give K-pop more fans while J-pop continue to fall behind.

If K-pop wasn't that big in the US, then whatever I said above wouldn't have gotten all that exposure already.

 

Uh,
I didn't really manage to get through all the words but I'll just throw in a few thoughts

You mentioned that after 2009-2012 a lot of fans switched from AKB, but this isn't really a coincidence or anything. AKB was on their peak and was "cool" at that point, that's the time that I found out about AKB as well. The fanbase is still huge but they're not the cool new kids on the block anymore. Teenyboppers looking for a hype new group to stan would probably be inclined to look elsewhere lol

The "weird" factor is less about Lady Gaga (Western artists do "weird" too...) high fashion stuff, and more about the "weird" Japanese culture (as people interpret it). Japanese idols are suited for the Japanese wota scene, which I'm sure you realise is different from the kpop idol scene. Kpop is marketed much more to international market, mostly Asia and diaspora Asians, because the local market alone can't sustain itself. I think a lot of Japanese artists do try to make it internationally, and some like Babymetal have an international kinda underground following, but this is mostly due to their specific novelty factor methink. In general jpop is unsuccessful internationally, lots of possible reasons for this that you can go on about.

 

Well I forgot to mention majority of former fans of J-pop that became K-pop fans are age in their late 20's-early 30's. So it's not only teenyboppers or hipsters.

Well I won't dispute that. But as I said there still unanswered questions some J-pop fans are asking about why J-pop fandom aren't learning anything from their K-pop counterpart or why K-pop fans aren't branching out to J-pop.

 

You might have took more offense to my wording than was intended lol, but sorry

Maybe there isn't really a need
Although I said I do think some Japanese artists have tried to branch out, I meant more like, they saw a potential market and tried it out, but it mostly didn't work out so now they don't actively try to court int fans

 

The majority of kpop fans are international fans. The majority of jpop fans are japanese fans. South Korea's music industry is incredibly tiny when compared to the Japanese one. The reason why kpop fans care more about global recognition is because the majority of the fans ARE foreign fans. And the Kpop industry cater towards them. The jpop fans don't care as much global recognition because their groups, and the industry itself can survive without global recognition. If it couldn't, they would be doing the same thing the Korean music industry does.
Let's set this straight. Jpop fans CAN do the same. They just chose not to because of the simply fact that there isn't any need to. Why would you go out of your way to buy a bottle of water in a shop a few roads down from you when you already have a bottle of water in your own home? There is no benefit in that.
Same as with a random japanese company or group. Why should they go out of their way to gain international recognition when they already have the means to support themselves in their home turf?
The international jpop who want jpop to have the same global recognition as kpop are, guess what, international fans themselves. The average japanese idol fan doesn't give a damn. A japanese AKB fan that has no interest in Dempagumi.inc deciding to go out of his way to support for the sake of "global recognition" when that same "global recognition" does not benefit him or his favorite group AT ALL just doesn't make sense.

Judging by your own post content i can see that you're very interested in the kpop vs jpop debate, but it really isn't a huge issue. At the end of the day, some KPOP fans branch out to JPOP because they like the music, others don't and choose to stay in their KPOP bubble. Some JPOP fans branch out to KPOP because they like the music, others don't and choose to stay in their JPOP bubble.
Some fans want to go out of their way to get a group they don't even care about some international recognition, others don't.
It's just how it is, i don't see why it's an issue.

 

This deserves a +1 and if I used tapatalk I'd give it.

I already stated basically the same thing, but Jpop fans (especially the Japanese ones) don't care about Jpop "recognition" and "status" outside of Japan. They don't need to, Japan has the 2nd largest music industry in the world. If you add up Japan music industry sales in Japan only, it still dwarfs Kpop music sales worldwide (I don't have the exact stats though, remember reading about it a while back).

Kpop fans need that international recognition because their internal music industry is very small. Jpop fans don't. I don't like AKB videos not on YouTube, but I get them literally the day they're released on YouTube from dailymotion, or many other sites as well (Google is a powerful thing lol).

Basically put, it's not a problem at all.

 

Plus you got Korean acts going to Japan and not the other way around lol, well for the most part. I think Yuko Fueki / Yoo Min (actress) was more popular in Korea than in Japan. When it comes to music, being 2nd place is not a bad thing...
But I can't believe how accessible K-Pop is these days. Even years ago, back when I was in primary school, I had an Indian person ask me "have you heard of HOT?" and I'm like . She expected me to know because I was Korean but I had no fricking idea. Fast forward to now, Psy I kinda get because he went to school in California, but HyunAh, former Wonder Girl that can't speak a lick of English, is relatively well known in America, it surprises the heck out of me.

Although... some Japanese artists that I believe can / have branched out to like USA for example... Utada Hikaru...

 

i think you're wrong, most of kpop fans are jpop fond too, so i dont see why you said they're not branch out, they're definetely notice AKb, most of kpop fans knew that, its just they're not rlly fond of them, not as much as they fond their kpop idols. like y'know for example.. anime fans knew about AKB, but not all of them are fond to AKB.

also, i always differentiates band-act like one ok rock, l'arc an-ciel or such, they're not jpop imo and they said itself that they're not part of jpop

and add to produce101, they're definitely stole AKB idea. I'm fan of them, i watch all their episode, i love sejong so much, she's my all time fav, also kim sohee, hyeri, doyeon, chaeyoung, and pinky. And actually their.. how to put it, the way they choose the senbatsu girls, its just the same like AKB, its like i'm watching nemousu tv team8 SP when they decide who's will be the center for team 8, only the difference is it gets combined with ssk system votes.

their idea is like ssk, where you can chose your own girl, and support them so your idol can win a spot in senbatsu. bla bla bla.. the main idea is.. fans can contribute to their idols.

the only difference is, you can vote without buying their singles.

even koreans are admitting that, that they're plagiarising akb.

and wjsn is not same like akb, just bc they have a lot of member doesnt mean they same like akb.

Jpop fans not united ? lol if they're not united ...then i will say kpop fans is actually a mess, bc what.. if you rlly and old kpop fans you must be knew and understands how tense the fight between each kpop fandom, i would like to say that kpop is actually an extremely fanwar zone lmao

i think you're just new into this.. i've been kpop fans since i was a child, and when i bored, i goes to jpop. More on that.. before i became kpop fans, i was kdrama fans, and even before bfore that.. i was an anime fan... gosh bless my childhold life. i used to watch pokemon since the first episode.

 

No you didn't offend me at all, none taken.

Well I think there might be a reason for that. I have a fact sheet that I found when doing my research which compiled information from mainstream news article and this one talk about J-pop. I'll quote this:

This really contrast with K-pop where Korean agencies want to get overseas fans. To be honest, J-pop had huge potential to have gone global like K-pop did, I mean I'm going to add this in here:

Again this reminds me a lot like it's K-pop counterpart, so why drop the ball, that's the thing that makes me scratch my head (and J-pop fans that wants to know). This last one got my attention and this prove J-pop fandom was at one point like K-pop fandom when it come to being passionate:

So what happened? The international fandom just suddenly lost interest and passion when majority of J-pop fans became K-pop fans and never came back after that. As that fact sheet (with news article cited on there), J-pop fans were just as passionate as K-pop fans and they wanted J-pop artists to be globally recognized like their K-pop counterpart. But something happened and that's the mystery. Was it accessibility that made people no longer being active in J-pop fandom? Was it something in J-pop that turn it off? I don't know, but myself and couple of J-pop fans I talked to have been baffled by this.

As I stated the thread is not a J-pop vs K-pop debate. The purpose of this thread is to have J-pop fans and AKB48 fans to probably give their thought why K-pop fans aren't branching out to J-pop and AKB48. Also I asked these same type of questions to other J-pop fans, they're not able to answer it and they can't give definitive answers. When I brought this up, they want to know this too. Although you 2 may not care about J-pop fandom not growing a international fanbases but there are other J-pop fans that want to know what happened. There are J-pop fans that wants to know why J-pop global fandom has greatly weakened and they also want to know why K-pop fandom aren't branching out to J-pop despite many K-pop fans were at one time former J-pop fans. There are probably people on Stage48 that wants to know why K-pop fans aren't branching out to AKB48 despite K-pop has already started to do more mega groups.

Another purpose of this thread, if K-pop and J-pop fans know what caused the downfall of J-pop global fandom, we can use these lessons to help prevent similar downfall in K-pop and future Asian pop (ie: Taiwanese pop) that may get popular outside of Asia. Even though you don't care if J-pop and AKB48 don't get global recognition, but there are J-pop fans that need closure regarding J-pop's global fandom downfall. That's why I set up this thread, it's my last hope since no one on other forum can answer or solve why J-pop global fandom just fell.

@minaeshi , @kyoto48☀︎☂ Can I ask you a question: Do you ever feel any jealousy or any resentment toward K-pop or it's fandom because of the international exposure and attention it get? Do you get upset that the international media keep focusing too much on K-pop and none on J-pop? Do you even develop any resentment on K-pop fandom when they show double standard on J-pop and K-pop? When you see K-pop winning international awards and beating western artists like One Direction, and Lady Gaga do you even say or remark to yourself "God, I wish AKB48 could win this award, why can't we have this?"

If you say "no" to all of these questions I've asked, then you just proved my theory about J-pop fandom not unified.

Uh fanwars in J-pop do happen (it did happen in the past when J-pop was popular amongst anime fans), some of my online J-pop fans I talked to told me fanwars within J-music global fandom did exist before K-pop got popular. So no matter what pop culture fandom you're in, fanwars will happen, J-pop was no exception.

J-pop fandom does seem not united because half of them don't want J-pop to be globally recognized, the other half of J-pop fandom want J-pop to get the same global mainstream (and household) recognition like K-pop is getting. This really contrast to what K-pop fandom. That's what I mean by J-pop not united. After K-pop got more popular and more mainstream outside of Asia, other smaller Asian pop fandom like Taiwanese Pop have also unite their fandom (or whatever left of it) to try and put effort to get people and K-pop fans to branch out to Taiwanese music, and it's working if you also factor in Taiwanese TV dramas. I don't see this in J-pop, all I see is a divided fandom and I'm not trying to cause any anger against people on Stage48.

To be honest, I don't understand this logic. USA is the #1 music market and yet we still export our music around the world. If USA can be #1 and still export and sell music to foreign countries then why can't Japan do the same?

EDIT:

I also want to add this. For those of you that don't give a damn about J-pop and AKB48 not getting global recognition. I recommend you read these 2 threads from a once-active J-pop forum:

Where did the j-pop community go?

What happened to Jpop community?

Look at the messages on both of the threads I linked, that's what I mean when I said J-pop lack unity. I want you all to step into their shoe and be what it like to see a once unified fandom just fallen. When I read those messages, it made me feel that J-pop fandom didn't work together to keep their fandom relevent.

The lack of unity in J-pop led to many J-pop forum being close down and I think many of you should read these:

THERE'S NO PROPER JPOP FORUM

WHY IS THERE NO ACTIVE JMUSIC FORUMS?

This make some (not all) J-pop fans feel resentment toward K-pop and it's fandom.

 

Because they are of totally different image and genre? At least that what Kpop fans thinks of Jpop and vice versa. PLUS, there are negative vibes and misconception attached to Jpop. Like Jpop is super weird and objectify and sexualize their idols (thou Kpop and even western acts objectify their idols too, esp Kpop which def sexualize their idols much more.. which no one realize, I guess? ) . thats why the whole world is hesitant to try Jpop. I mean foreign media blow up all the weird antics, but they are not neccessarily the best or even the popular one. Japanese culture has some weird stigma and misconception attached to it to.. due to spread of misinformation by mainstream medias. thou it is still considered cool in general

 

AKB has tons of international recognition, haven't you seen all the foreign news articles about pedophilia and school girl pornography and the crying shaved head Mii picture that gets posted everytime someone says "Japan"? :^)

 

Just different style.
I was back in 2011-2012 HUGE K-pop fan, but one time i found AKB on youtube, and i do remember i didnt understood AKB's style at all but i was interested in the group and in their concept, but i guess im just more open minded, some people are not, today i dont listen that much to Kpop.

 

Lol, no. Not a single atom in my body cares about those things you asked. Why would I be jealous of Kpop? I'm not some 13 year old teenage girl who feels jealousy about little things like a different countries music being more recognized than my favorite music.... and then feels resentment (what??) towards their fans?

Frankly I'm completely baffled by this entire thread (well, not the entire thread, but the fact that this means so much to you). I've never watched an "international awards" that gives prizes to Kpop artists over Lady Gaga. I care more about the plight of the South African honey bee than I care about this (i.e. not at all).

Who cares if the "fandom of Japanese music" is united? I like 46/48g. I don't give one sh*t about e-girls and babymetal. I don't need an entire forum for all Jpop. This forum right here takes care of all the things I like about Japanese music.

I think the real question is, do you have jealousy or resentment towards Kpop and its "international recognition"? Because it sounds like it reading this. You say we haven't been able to answer anything, but I think we have answered. The answer is most fans don't really care about that stuff, nor do people in Japan. We don't need to be united, because there's so many different types of j-music for everyone to like, we can all enjoy our own thing without having to worry about the rest.

 

you know I'm a kpop fan since 2011 and during that time until early 2015 I don't care at all about jpop because I have everything I need from kpop scene.
but after they're releasing the same sh*t all over again except for a few, I don't check them as often and only checking epik high and big bang once in while, since they're still satisfying musically. but never get into the fandomness anymore.
and after 2015 I got struck with akb48group and later sakamichi series (nogi+keyaki) with sometimes checking babymetal and soloists such as yui and miwa
I agree with statement above that it's all about taste and preference, you may branch out or you may not is up to the person, and a fandom unity is not a necessary thing especially if you have different favourites..
and the last time I check, twice with 53 million views on youtube could only sell less than 100k cd albums while keyakizaka with "only" 4million views on youtube could break the sales record with 260 thousands something sold. Not that I'm a twice hater, I love them and their japanese trinity members but my point is they have different focus and agenda and also different way of selling products and different regional scope and both way proven successfully.
I was just repeating above statements but that's how I feel as a J and K music scene fan

but the one thing I get jealous of is the translated shows. While probably all kpop show got subbed, the jpop shows counterpart doesn't. But it makes me appreciate the subber more than ever though. It's a hard fanservice after all