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NGT48 Assault Case

Discussion in 'General NGT48 Discussion' started by Cisalpine88, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Theworld

    Theworld Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Cracking down on assholes does sound very good. I mean which cashier or store manager doesn't want to ban that old lady giving them a hard time? Let's let management monitor these people on social media and ban all the assholes as they see fit.

    The rest is supposition, but that is going in circles so no point in addressing them.

    No one said accept it. Everyone knows the backstage is not all rainbows and unicorns with heavy politics and teenager egos constantly clashing. If they find it toxic or problematic they can leave.

    Please define what "selective" means, because where is the incentive to change if they know they can just ride it out?

    Protesting against one game in the portfolio of hundreds of IPs owned is not the same as protesting against the whole group itself. Since AKS is not a publicly traded company they have harder time raising capital or credit in the private market vs a company with billions of cash sitting on the balance sheet that can absorb losses. But since you like to liken it to the GAME industry, take a look at what happened to activision blizzard with their recent layoff because of slow down in business, but then again this can't possibly happen in any other industry?!
     
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  2. nobodywil

    nobodywil Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
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    From the Islands to The Bay
    Just like “games”... Im a consumer and Ill continue to “shop around”. There’s a lot of good games/idols out there that doesn’t have these AAA “problems”. :^^;:
     
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  3. Theworld

    Theworld Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
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    I agree with you my friend. isn't it nice that in a free market you are able to allocate your dollars where you see fit based on what you like? There are plenty of other amazing groups that probably deserve more attention, but some choose to continue to stay in the swamp...i wonder who are the ones really stuck in the past?

    that said i do have a problem when people try to use morality as a club against people on the other side, labeling them all as anachronistic old men who wants another mouth covering incident to happen again and feeders into status quo.
     
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  4. nobodywil

    nobodywil Kenkyuusei

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    From the Islands to The Bay
    I usually don’t watch Idols or any other forms of “entertainment” on the “morality” factor of strangers.


    But people I’ve given my respect to and can have a civil conversation face to face... I’m willing to listen.
     
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  5. wlerin

    wlerin Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oshimen:
    Mutou Tomu
    Ah but I didn't. While I don't agree with your viewpoint, I also think it's been fairly reasonable so far. But just because you disagree with those others on "your side" doesn't mean they aren't part of it, any more than e.g. Theworld isn't on the same "side" as I am. Much though we might wish otherwise...

    edit: Really though I'm not sure why I've been going along with the "two sides" idea, as my original point in response to Dirkkun (lost in the edit and subsequent discussion) was that there are more than just two.

    And it's an opinion I agree with. But I'm also well aware it isn't going away any time soon.

    Even if these were the only things people wanted solved, they are not as easily addressed as you might like.

    How do they "improve management" in a way that people will believe and accept? Especially if that incompetence (or even corruption) goes all the way to the top? (And given the last 5 years, we have no reason to believe it doesn't.)

    How do they crack down on "yakkai wota"? Given some people's defintion that term could apply to just about all core wota, especially with a small regional group like NGT. Where, and how, do they draw the line? NGT depends on its core wota and the rest of 48G isn't much more independent, given management's chronic failure at appealing to the general public. How do you think a boycott by that general public will affect that dependence? Do you think it's going to have a positive effect? Really?

    How is management supposed to "deal" with "bullying" between grown adult women? Or even between younger ones? Even Japanese schools can't get that right, and AKS has vastly less influence over idols' lives than a school administration does over its students. There are things they can do to mitigate it, like AKB's shuffles forcing members to widen their social groups (the opposite of what NGT's shuffle did), or way back in the beginning, management throwing 2nd and 1st gen together in the two Himawari stages to force them to work through their differences. NGT management can do a better job of encouraging good behaviour, but can they require it? I don't think so. Not the way e.g. HKT was able to in its infancy.

    I'm not convinced that members (other than Rika) were actually "dating", so much as fraternizing with fans in ways that pushed the boundaries of the love ban, and which would still be a scandal to many if they got out. And in ways that many other 48G idols also engage in, e.g. private LINE communications. I also suspect NGT management was at least partly aware of this, and permitted it. Rika had a massive scandal and receive nil censure, what's a few meetups with your fanclub down at Jojoen when having a boyfriend sleep over is fine and dandy? And the reason management looked the other way wasn't (just?) money..

    I do agree, and thought from the beginning, that a loosening of the "love ban" was one of if not the major cause of this incident. But that loosening was intentional, something that Aki-P and other AKS higher-ups have been trying to accomplish for years, seeking to slowly alter wota opinions about and resistance to members dating. When was the last time they took a firm stance against a member caught in a romance scandal? (Don't tell me Miki and Naanya, they were out after curfew.) Punishing members simply for dating would be a regression from that goal, so of course instead they are trying to protect them--even if it is too late; even if the love ban did serve a necessary and not-remotely-obsolete purpose.

    But why were they doing this? Why abandon such a useful policy? Simple. Public pressure. The same kind of public pressure that is now demanding they fix NGT. If they bend to that pressure with the same lack of understanding as before, there's no reason to think the end result won't be just as bad. This is why I think it's good for them to take their time, and why I don't think a public response that forces them into a desperate reaction is beneficial. Of course there is no guarantee they are really trying to fix anything... but I think the choice is between letting them have the time needed to maybe fix it properly, or forcing them to fix it now only to guarantee the fix is bad.

    I don't believe that last thing even happened, but if it did it's a very serious matter and that member should be removed.

    Absolutely not. Imamura out of power is already a huge step in the right direction. Keep up a steady amount of pressure, but allow them to finish their investigation. In the meantime allow the members and group room to breathe. Don't send bomb threats to the theater and stopping spamming member SNS with death threats and hate messages everytime they try to speak. Keeping them silent isn't helping. Don't confuse the issues with (more) wild mass guessing. For fans, continue to support the members you think deserve support, whether that's just the Angelic Quartet, Team G, or all of NGT, because their life is still going on. I hope that this investigation comes up with a result that is "satisfactory", but it's also going to take at least 1.5 months, and I don't think it's wrong for them to resume business in the meantime, so long as appropriate precautions are taken.

    If I had decision-making power, I would cooperate with the investigation and make sure it pursues the truth rather than just looking for a pleasing story.

    Even before the investigation concludes I would ban the attackers and their immediate social circle from all NGT (ideally all 48G) events, unless there was proof they were not aware of or not involved in the attack or the stalking. If it was still possible I would pursue criminal or civil action against the two main perpetrators, and maybe against Inapooh if there is enough proof of his stalking activities. I'd also force Imamura to apologise publicly, but that's probably outside of anyone in NGT's power.

    Then, depending on the results of the investigation (and going off what seems to be the case right now), I would not censure members who were connected with fans (in whatever manner). That they thought this was permissible was the fault of management. (cf. Mahohon's complaint that things were allowed in NGT that weren't elsewhere.) But I would restore the love ban, and make it clear that future violations would be punished. If any member knowingly leaked personal info to the attackers, I would give her some kind of behind the scenes punishment (e.g. pay cut, fine, reduced performances, suspension, not sure what tools exactly they have available.) But if any did so with the intent to cause Mahohon distress I would remove that member from the group. Foolishness comes with the territory, but malice doesn't belong in an idol group. (Aside from the last part, none of this would be visible to the public.)

    As for Mahohon remaining in the group, she seems committed to one particular resolution, but if that's not the resolution management, the investigation team, and the rest of the members eventually settle on... Well, then what she does is kind of up to her, no? My ideal outcome would be a reconciliation between her and the rest of the members (excepting any who were directly involved in the attack), but I don't think she's interested. Her actions and words since the attack have been schismatic.

    I was conflating people, and I apologise for that. Although you have been, erm, "reacting" in more ways than just posting, and that gave me the impression you were aligned with the others I mentioned.
     
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  6. Dirkkun

    Dirkkun Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    I think a good start is getting people who will actually attempt to deal with problems instead of trying to sweep them under the rug. And maybe try not lie everytime they make an annoucement like the new management has been doing.

    There are plenty of core wota in the boycott movement, not just general fans (and 48G antis). Imamura's preferential treatment of the Joe-kai was already grating on them and the way management reacted to the assault was the tipping point for a lot of them.

    As far as the yakkai goes, as you said, Imamura not being there is going to be a big step. Even without going near the reselling allegations, he has an history of enabling the yakkai at the expanse of normal wota. And If a jackass has been banned in all the other theaters, maybe don't let them in yours? If you're having trouble and don't know how to deal, contacting the theater managers who are better at it for advice could help too.

    The same way you deal with harassment in any workplace? If someone is disruptive to operations, you put sanctions on them. (And maybe make them watch a 4 hour video on how not to be an ass to others. :^O^:) AKS might needs some kind of HR department for dispute resolution, harassment complaints and well-being assessments, if members feel like their 'local' management is involved/not up to par.

    You do know there's more evidence of Gatanee and Ayakani going out with those guys (and by going I don't mean having fan meetings in a restaurant) than Nakai having her boy-toy sleep over, right? :^^;:

    I'm not sure that the kind of unstable people who make bomb and death threats are likely to be swayed by a forum post, but all good etiquette for the situation. :^^;:
     
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  7. wlerin

    wlerin Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

    Joined:
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    Mutou Tomu
    Where are they supposed to get these people from? Europe perhaps [hehe]? And what have they been lying about, exactly? That Mahohon wanted performances to resume? They haven't been very forthcoming with information, but besides that disagreement between Mahohon and Maiko(?) I don't recall anything. I'm not sure I'd call that a lie either, we have no idea what Mahohon actually told her or how that conversation went, although it certainly isn't doing Maiko any favours.

    Really? From what I've seen NGT's core wota are more worried than they are involved in the boycott. Other than the four's wota of course. All the "TOs" and all the fan communities are still in operation, the Orange Brigade is still going strong. For sure there's Inapooh antis (yes, they exist, else we wouldn't have months-old screencaps of his Twitter mixed in with new ones) in the boycott movement. I think you're mistaking their motives, however, based on threads before the incident. There are antis of the suspect members, who were spamming hate for them long before this incident came to light, and continue to do so just adding new material to the old. There are general NGT antis, still sore over Request Hour and SSK who see in this case both justification for their hate and an opportunity for vengeance. And for sure there's other shitposters on 2ch and new sock puppet Twitter accounts run by people from the aforementioned categories. How many actual core wota beyond that are boycotting, as opposed to either supporting their oshimen as before or just moving on?

    I'm not sure about the other members of "Joe-kai", but
    Most of Inapooh's bans were lifted some time ago.

    Yeah, see, this is exactly the problem... That doesn't exist in Japan. There is no cultural framework for it, and there is no legal requirement for it either. There is a growing recognition that "power harassment" is a problem in the Japanese workplace and Japanese culture, and you may see it addressed in the media (dorama, etc.), but still very little progress has been made in solving it. The government recently made some half-hearted attempts to legislate against it, but mostly only succeeded in acknowledging it might be a problem. On the other side 3 months later this still doesn't have the signatures it asked for. It would be great if NGT management could lead the way instead of being part of the problem, but people from outside Japan who are shocked that this could happen are looking at it from the perspective of their own cultures, and fail to recognise how difficult what they are asking really is. They are demanding a fairly inept and mediocre management team to become, overnight, paragons of righteousness and justice. I'm not going to hold my breath.

    So yes, the bullying is a systemic problem. But it is not systemic within NGT48, or within 48G, or even within the idol industry. It is systemic within Japan, and it is not going get solved in the next decade let alone the next 2 months.


    Though on the topic of a bullying in the workplace video, maybe one thing NGT48 could do to begin redeeming itself is create such a video on bullying and power harassment. Oh wait they already did. :^^;:

    Uhm, no? There's a lot of red string but little if anything in the way of actual evidence.

    Disclaimer: I've always disliked Gatanee so I haven't spent any time or effort investigating the rumours about her.
     
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  8. Cristina Salazar

    Cristina Salazar Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    Twitter:
    cristina_1848
    you really spilled a tea on this one.
     
  9. Qtyu33

    Qtyu33 Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Location:
    Singapore
    Oshimen:
    Mukaichi Mion
    Guys see this, look like handshake queen of NGT will still be queen scandal or not no effect.
     

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  10. wlerin

    wlerin Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oshimen:
    Mutou Tomu
    Hinatan had a scandal? :confused:

    NWM
    [​IMG]

    Sentimental Train
    [​IMG]

    Jabaja
    [​IMG]

    11gatsu
    [​IMG]

    Sukinanda#
    [​IMG]

    (Might be worth noting that Jabaja outsold both Sukinanda# and 11gatsu. Iirc a lot of these ended up being empty orders.)
     
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  11. Qtyu33

    Qtyu33 Kenkyuusei

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    Jan 29, 2019
    Location:
    Singapore
    Oshimen:
    Mukaichi Mion
    Sure there was a decline for marina handshake but the fact she can still sell handshakes mean she will remain in NGT, general fans opinion does not matter at all.
     
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  12. Theworld

    Theworld Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Let's see em!
     
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  13. chrissirhc

    chrissirhc Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2016
    Oshimen:
    Okada Nana
    this is one
    what they said they would do

    @qc_bb: AKS Executive Matsumura Takumi told Niigata Nippo on 1/22 that the third party investigation team will have 5-6 lawyers, compliance officers and mental health counselors.
    He also said results will likely not be available by the end of February.
    #NGT48
    #JusticeForMahohon

    what actually happened
    @qc_bb: #NGT48 announced a third party investigation team today comprised of lawyer from 3 firms:
    Iwasaki Law - Consultant for Ariola Japan, NGT's record company
    Akasaka Mori no Ki Law - Head attorney was former consultant for Dentsu, AKS's partner
    Shinwa Law - AKS legal consultant
     
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  14. Dirkkun

    Dirkkun Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    I find it hard to believe that everyone is completely useless in AKS to the point of not being able to find anyone. Some managers have shown themselves to be actually decent.

    Beside the Maho wanting to come back thing and who was going to be in the 3PIT as chrissirhc said, the announcement of said 3PIT members came in the middle of the week rather than the beginning like they said it would previously. Yeah, those are not huge lies/mistakes, but when you're trying to rebuild trust... don't kick the hornet's nest. [hehe]

    The "boycott side" is not just made of 'cut all links to NGT/48G and make sure they die off' people, there are fans who are worried about what their oshimen might feel pressured do in the future. Some are campaigning sponsors to put pressure on AKS rather than members, some are campaigning for the medias to actually investigate, some are just reducing/limiting their spending to what will most directly benefit their oshimen and ignore the more general stuff, some are just boycotting the members they suspect of having a part in... Like you said before, it's not really just two sides, but a whole spectrum of people. Oh, 十人十色. :^O^:

    There are outcriers expecting impossible things in everything. That doesn't mean we shouldn't ask management to do/become better.

    Right, it's all circumstantial evidence and not enough to prove involvement by itself (as opposed to direct evidence, which is a direct proof). I was just pointing out that it's funny you're defending members with the fact that there's no proof, but believe in the guilt of another when there's no proof of that either.

    ----​

    Riko and Rena both sent mobame yesterday apparently.
     
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  15. Reveen

    Reveen Upcoming Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Location:
    Sunnyvale Trailer Park
    Thank you. As you say, we obviously have a different viewpoint on things in various areas. I agree with some of what you posted and disagree with some of it. I don't see any need to dissect your post point by point as that would risk me just re-hashing things that I've already said. I think I've been reasonably clear in my opinion so far.
     
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  16. Theworld

    Theworld Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
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    And here I was waiting for that earth shattering evidence! "You know theres actually MORE evidence than...LoLjk psyched I was trying to make a point" next time come up with a better excuse.

    What's stopping them ? They can write negative op eds after op eds and opinion pieces but can't do some actual journalisiming?
     
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  17. nobodywil

    nobodywil Kenkyuusei

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    Having different viewpoints is a good thing. With civil conversations, we can enjoy the rest of our day.

    Or we can all do “revenge dislikes” like one poster “admitted” of doing for shits and giggles. :^^;:
     
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  18. wlerin

    wlerin Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

    Joined:
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    Mutou Tomu
    Well, yes, but... presumably they're doing something else right now? Like... Yuasa seems fairly good, which is why it sucked when they sent him back to SKE and replaced him with Shinobu. If they have other decent managers I'd hope they were already busy doing something productive before this happened.

    First off, the associations of those lawyers with AKS/NGT was posted to 2ch without any proof whatsoever, and last I checked it hasn't been confirmed. It shouldn't be difficult for the original source to provide that proof, or people with access to public records to dig it up. On the other hand, people are more likely to just believe this accusation because of what came out about one executive of Gondola (the third party investigation company that they hired back in 2017 to investigate the supposed mobile mail voting glitch). But in that case there was lots of proof of his association. Here there is none. I find that suspicious.

    But moving on. Yes, they did fail to bring in compliance officers and mental health counselors as planned. Hopefully both will still be brought in at a later stage.
    And yes they did fail to meet the predicted announcement date (nitpick: the final announcement was at the end of that week not the middle). But making predictions about the future that don't turn out isn't lying, it's just speaking hastily and because of that being wrong. Saying what they want to happen without knowing for sure that it's going to happen. Of course it still hurts people's trust.

    Ironically if they'd really wanted to hide something about the committee, the beginning of the week was the perfect time, as Arashi had just announced their 2020 dissolution.

    Personally I'd also like it if people kept the pressure up on the bad wota. It feels to me like focus has shifted away from them to witch hunting members.

    Most everyone agrees management needs to shape up, but since neither of the new people had a part in the events leading up to this it's kind of like we're shooting at Storm Troopers. "Management" without Imamura is just a faceless monstrosity.

    It's true that there was a lot of red string in Rika's case too, but there were multiple photos (I don't mean the purikura-like HS 2-shots) and she admitted to doing something wrong. Regardless of how much was true, management's non-response to that incident (even to deny it) is just one more piece of evidence that they were leaving enforcement of the love ban to fans. That's why I brought up Rika, not to accuse her of anything.

    I don't disagree. I just think some of what even reasonable people are asking is way more difficult than they seem to realise. While small solutions (like the committee) could just be an attempt to appease the public without really doing anything, they're also the only thing they can do, and a succession of them is the only way they're ever going to be able to address the big stuff.
     
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  19. Theworld

    Theworld Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    If people actually read the original at NiigataNippo, they would see that the wording is pretty clear that the entire team will consist of 5-6 ppl (not 5-6 LAWYERS), with lawyers and "experts". At the time of interview he was still thinking what experts would consist of but thought "I think compliance is a big theme, and we are also thinking about mental health." They didn't even quote him verbatim for the 5-6 number, but did quote him saying lawyers and "probably" experts, which is pretty strange. I just go meh at this one at the straw grasping.

    Apples and oranges... no one called for public lynching of Rika, maybe except antis. These ppl can't survive without a majority public support after scandals. You are right in Rika's situation she already admitted it and let the dirty laundry dry. If the two suspected are fired/quit that's as good as admitting the guilt, no matter how much they spin it as a reason to quit, their names forever associated with the case even if possibly innocent(lmao who am i kidding their names already are). I hope people see the reason why there needs to be more caution in this case, but i know people want the blood and want it now:!:
     
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  20. Psh

    Psh Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2019
    I follow this case on onehallyu in the Japanese Entertainment Celebrity News & Gossip section. It surprises me that there are more news and information on what is happening in NGT48, AKS and Japan shared there than in this thread. Speculations and arguments are great and all but I assumed S48 would contain more translations, facts, news, rumors and insider knowledge than what is essentially a k-pop site.
     
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