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Unpopular Opinions

Discussion in 'General Nogizaka46 Discussion' started by ひめか, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. Seditious85

    Seditious85 Upcoming Girls

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    Everyone that claims that there is no artistic value in idol music is dead wrong. Although the girls don't compose the songs themselves, or make up the choreo, it doesn't mean that an idol group is of any less value than other artists. The phrase "real musician" really irks me.

    An idol group has another structure than bands such as Radwimps or Dir En grey, for sure. But the composers create wonderful compositions, the choreographers think of splendid dance moves, and directors create engaging MV's. And the girls, they are the performers, the faces, they are the ones that bring the whole package to its audience. And everything created in this manner is no less than a work of art. Idol groups have every right to win the award, just as other artists.

    This is not a biased opinion, since most of my music collection consists of extreme metal bands, which is kind of the total opposite of Nogizaka (in both music and the creative process).

    And that's where you are wrong, because there is nothing objective about visuals and beauty. It's all in the eye of the beholder. If you think certain members are low tier / average / whatnot, that's okay. But don't claim it as facts. Don't say that those who think otherwise are delusional. Because that is rude.
     
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  2. mayuri91

    mayuri91 Kenkyuusei

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    nogi visual is above than average compared to keya because that is the image that has been created for nogi especially when maiyan is on top of modelling world(and at one point, girls collection even made nogiXtgc exclusive runway, and there were so many exclusive models in nogi). keya seems has better dancing and performances because they are revolved around hirate and her "godly" expression (not her dancing skill tbh) and that is people perception of keya, and now hina with its happy aura(although it isnt that grandious because every idol usually is happy and bright). and obviously because of that people will think there are some girl should be here and there. and you guys still cant see that. what a.....

    jpop vs kpop. as long as japan still does the geoblock youtube, there is no way jpop influence gonna be spread out. and their artists/idols too seem not interested to go out and meet fans. probably language barrier. and also, japan is lacking in film and drama department. no new overhype drama/film since years ago.
     
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  3. Asphyxia

    Asphyxia Kenkyuusei

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    I'm tired with this unnecessary comparison.... you guys never stop aren't you?

    There's nothing wrong about Techi she's a performer. and nope never heard of that "godly" expression you are saying, as far as I know its "Pierce" stop exaggerating things and expression is crucial part of dancing skill specially in idol industry where the face is their most selling point. do you think 'Synchronicity' will be that good if Maiyan and other members did not express it very well? its a big no. the only problem is the management that keeping her on center position but its not Techi's choice and fault. why do you think Techi is popular with other artist such as Hirai Ken and Sekai no Owari? its because of her expression. stop turning other someones strength into their weakness. its the same as Maiyan's strength her "beauty". Its not we don't see the problem you are just not aware because you are blinded on your superiority complex.

    (someone will assume I'm Tech's oshi again :^O^:)


    I'll just leave this here.
    http://keyavids.com/hirai-ken-x-hirate-yurina-nonfiction-fns-music-festival-2017-12-06-english-sub/


    please research first before stating facts.....

    do you know why Kenshi Yonezu's "Lemon" is popular until now? if not then you don't know what you are saying.

    and in movie department have you ever heard of "One Cut of the Dead" and "Shoplifters"?
     
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  4. Gofindnova

    Gofindnova Kenkyuusei

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    I don’t know enough about Japan’s music industry to know why/whether independent artists are struggling. But if Da Pump’s USA had the best shot of winning if it wasn’t a cover, then the JRA awards are clearly more about popular success. I mean, that song is dumb lol.

    I can understand why musicians might resent idols though. When top idols struggle to hit notes, it can make you wonder, “why is this girl on a stage?” That’s not to say that idols aren’t talented – there are good songs and good singers. But it’s sometimes obvious they don't prioritize idols for their song/dance ability. That’s a deliberate strategy by management, which could be considered sleazy and makes it harder to hold up as “serious art.” I’m personally indifferent to J-pop style music in general, so I don’t feel qualified to judge Nogi's music; there’s only a few Nogi songs I really like. That being said, Nogizaka is ultimately a pop group making pop songs. It doesn’t have to be the greatest music in Japan. (That title obviously goes to Da Pump’s USA.)

    Nick from Nogieigo did a Slope podcast interview where he said that in Japan’s entertainment industry, people talk shit about each other a lot. But even so, nobody talks shit about idols, not even in private. Everyone knows that the idols are taking their jobs on TV, but they all recognize that the girls themselves are hardworking and earnest. I don’t know if it’s different in the music industry.

    The closest Western style is “preppy” fashion. Casual wear, but with elements of upper-class formal clothing like collars, ties, blazers, originating from Ivy League colleges. There’s nice examples in Gossip Girl. School uniforms in Japan were adopted from actual navy sailor uniforms, so they naturally convey a degree of class and formality. Most Nogi uniforms look like student cosplay, but the brown uniforms aren't as obvious, so they might pass as streetwear in a fashion-forward city like Tokyo. If you're asking if the design itself is good... I don't actually have an eye for fashion. They remind me of the Yukiko-tan coffee mascots, whose art designs were chosen out of thousands, so… I guess that means it’s good?
     
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  5. vshav

    vshav Kenkyuusei

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    Hi @Conjyak ! Woah you replying to me feels like an idol/artist replying to my tweets. I have known your blog even before knowing this forum. And also yeah I totally get what you mean! Their uniforms are very aesthetics.

    I am not that qualified either to talk about fashion design as my expertise right now is only as far as that I like clothes and coordinating them. And especially the garment I love the most is elegant, feminine, knee-length skirts that's why Nogizaka's costume is definitely my cup of tea.

    Now please bear my lengthy fangirling over Nogi's uniforms.

    I had a bit of digging about their uniforms. Apparently there is a certain formula to their clothes. This is what I found so far:

    1. The length of the skirts are cut in a way so that when all members were lining side-to-side, the hem of the skirts fell in the same location. So regardless of the variation of the members' heights, the skirts fell in the same distance from the ground. That's why back when Matsumura was still the tallest (I think), I always felt why her uniform kind of look different from the rest. Once I observed her more because she often moves quite weirdly with her legs, I realised that it's because she has a lot more fabric size and alas longer skirt (from her waist to the position the skirt should've end).

    2. The clothes are tailored to each of the members' figures. I am betting it's not one size fit all. Takayama said before that the neck line of hers and Akimoto's are tailored differently so that it shows off more of their necks; because apparently their necks are short. Afterall, if they can customise the skirt's length for sure they also go all the way to body-fit the torso part.

    3. I saw once the company who created Nogizaka costume has started to create a line of clothes for public. Seems like although they are not in-house designer of Nogizaka LLC, they have quite a good long-terms relationship with Nogi.

    And also I had an accidental great finding that apparently Nogi's dance costume for Hadashi was made by high-end designer. My quotes here in another thread long time ago

    4. Nogi's costume has really, REALLY, nice fabrics. It's firm, but flowy.

    5. The way the fabrics are cut and sewn creates the sleek lines that accentuate the feminine line of female body. The usual theme of the cut is:
    • Slightly body-fit around the torso, upper waist-length that makes their torso looks small, and using darts in the back and front to make them look standing upright.
    • They way this is done is by creating side darts or waist darts to create that preppy look. Sometimes they go all the way from the shoulder up to waist (like the one in the pics you shared). If you see this pic you'd know some familiar cuts (and not familiar at all) in Nogi's costumes darts.jpg
    • The skirts usually starts from the upper waist, or at most the middle waist at the lowest. It rarely starts from the lower waist/upper hip parts. One of the version for Kaerimichi's uniform even looks like a skirt-dress with a bolero on top. Now, why is this skirt starts from this part is because it elongates the legs. Actually this is mostly the way all Japanese idols' costumes and anime clothes design are usually designeed (usually with a lot shorter skirts).
    • The longer sleeves tend to be a bit puffed on the shoulders, and then puffed again at the waist hem and ended with a cuff. Oh and seriously Nogi's uniform's cuffs are meticulous and cute to see. The short sleeve are usually ended with a cuff at the hem line.
    • The neck collars are made to showcase the members' neck. Usually the neck collars and shoulders are the most accented part of their costumes. Maybe because it's usually within close up camera range?
    • Their shoes tend to be the same flats. Their socks varied from short socks to actual stockings. This depend on what kind of look they want to portray (a modest & warm one for fall/winter, or a fresh & skin-showing short socks for summer/spring)
    • In summary, it's a combination of cute puffy sleeves, then sleek-boxy torso, then long line of A-line skirts. It's a whole combination of cute & classy to be worn by girls.
    6. Lastly, their uniforms don't look like costumes. It looks like an actual uniform/dress you'll proudly wear anywhere. AKB's costumes while they're not inferior in terms of design, tend to look costume-ish.

    If there's a chance I get to go to Japan, I really really want to got to Daitai Zenbu museum and have those clothes up close.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  6. outkastband

    outkastband Kenkyuusei

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    and i still remember 3nen A-gumi (Mr. Hiiragi's Classroom) being very popular last season.
    if what he means overhype for overseas, then maybe he was right, because a lot of japanese drama and movie nowadays is about social or maybe mystery or science drama (lot of doctor themed drama last year) and what overseas viewer wanted to watch is romance or action like korean drama.

    sorry a bit OOT since this is nogizaka's thread not JDrama thread [hehe][hehe]
     
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  7. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    No need to use 'again' because i haven't yet change my mind ;)

    Oh, and i've seen someone on Manaka's thread pointing that Matsumura's case is far worse than hers. I've seen someone bashing Yoda on her thread and suddenly said Tecchi is the best performer. I've seen someone keep comparing Nogi's 4th gen and Kanji 2nd gen which they put Nogi's 4th gen on the bad side and Kanji's on the good side. I've seen someone talk about Kuroi Hitsuji have the better chance to win JRA on Nogi's 23rd single threads while saying all Nogi's JRA winning just because Akimoto and Sony pay it. So, i can ask the same thing, you guys just wont stop, don't you?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
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  8. tzatziki2

    tzatziki2 Kenkyuusei

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    JRA or no JRA, real musician or not real musician, Japan pop/drama or Korean pop/drama, the cold truth is that the entertainment industry is, for females at least, mostly about image and attractiveness. Even for several things outside the entertainment industry as well tbh.
     
  9. Asphyxia

    Asphyxia Kenkyuusei

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    again its up to your imagination. :shifty:

    Does that mean you need to do the same?

    do you mean this azzhole on Yoda thread? he's obviously a no brainer.

    Capture.PNG
     
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  10. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    hE's obVioUSly a n0 bRainEr
     
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  11. towiti

    towiti Kenkyuusei

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    Lol, I'm just a passerby who's looking for an argument.

    Aesthetics is a difficult subject; 'what is art?' is a question that has been asked for centuries. Though we are not at all experts, the general public still always try to figure out what the answer looks like. And generally, throughout our history, I believe we always seem to frown upon 'arts' that serve commercialization.

    I know, it's vague. How do I say that Idol's music is merely commercial goods? I can't say for certain. But, again, vaguely, through occurrences in our history, society developed some clues on how to 'suspect' a maker of being 'a sellout', 'cheap'. And it just so happens that the Idol industry fell into some categories. The lack of craftsmanship/dedication to the art (singing/dancing) but instead a reliance on irrelevant but convenient quality like outlook and character from the idol; the excessive marketing and alongside with it, massive revenue from the agency; the crazed fanbase that functions like a cult, which would mean little and/or ineffective criticism; etc. all and all, combined and created a public image and hence a negative view on idol music.

    Lots of you guys are going to be against the current if you want to take a stance for your idol and 'change society'. But I think you should be aware that it's a war of words, much like those that are happening in our politics nowadays: anyone can say anything that sounds about right.

    This is also questionable. There are beauty standards that if you follow, people are going to like you more and if you don't, a lot are going to consider you unattractive. I think beauty is a combination of both.

    But yeah, it's not fact. I remember reading somewhere that fat women in the Middle Ages are considered attractive because only rich and royal families can have fat women back then.
     
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  12. mayuri91

    mayuri91 Kenkyuusei

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    dude, im sorry if my english is bad but im pretty sure my writting is not that hard to be understood?? and i said, the perception/image already carved into people mind according to what each group main member. and wth with sudden techi argument? isnt you guys that started that S**t thing 1st? how she has very impressive expression since day 1 of saimajo and how she is the PERFECT centre of saimajo because of that, and she will BE kept as centre because she has that very very impresive expression that no one will ever achieve?? yes, i think you are not a techi follower because you never read that i guess.
    AND
    that lemon song was only blow up in japan. not in any other part of the world. what i mean is no drama/film that are hype internationally. the only thing that keep jpop song floating internationally is anime, but then, anime fans are known as geek weeb freak. and only one piece(and those famous one like naruto conan samurai x dragon ball attack of titan n several others) is generally accepted.
    i think you didnt read carefully and misunderstood.lmao
     
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  13. vshav

    vshav Kenkyuusei

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    I am not adding anything substantial to the topic here. Just wanted to tell you that you write really well. I think you should consider a career in journalism.
     
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  14. cantankerous

    cantankerous Kenkyuusei

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    haha :D

    safe to say that commercialization already exist since back then, hundred years ago (great) artists sold their artistry for the masses whether it was religious or, sole economic reason. but in modern society where capitalism and its machine became so extensive or, downright exploitative, there were reaction and critic from the purist or mere left~progressive that the pure intention of artistic creation was became corrupted. that's one of the reasons --beside the attitude against rigid conservatism, iconoclasm of classic art, or, whatever-- i believe, and its also one of that gave birth to thing like avant garde , post-modern and stuff. it's, i guess, become the divisive key and could explain why its held the status quo in many people mind nowadays, artists that's became commercial equal to sellout.
    neither that thought and criticism far from being wrong nor will holding the truth exceptionally imo, but like you say it's hard to overcome if thing that so vague already stigmatized heavily.
    what's the clear line? here we may never sure but lets one propose for attitude.
    - why do we do put much stress on other side of thoughts regard those "negative views" . in the end what differ "great" art with ordinary (or even bad one) is one that's endure test of time
    - art, inspite of the never end question for its terminology(from what its seems) i believe always come with a primordial question, correlated to one another, "does it aroused emotion in you?" .
    even thing that gloriously bullied in this message board, that shitte USA, held value if it;s evoked its target listeners. it's art, amid for many of us, the horrible one. thing success aroused our contempt by emotion. well that's line more like a joke xD

    objective is more like "the girl has small nose, white skin, oval vace, long straight hair etc" . beauty(visually), come from one perception regard that objective facts. things i guess became "standard" where's the tendency of inter-subjective validation among people. but in fact, like you have said, there existed different value held one to another either separated by period, culture, or society. east asia(or asia in general, by impression) still think that looked white is essential in beauty but not much in other places. it's probably too much but in art, i believe, there term like aesthetic relativism

    (god cmiiw. i dont even know what ima typing lol)
     
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  15. towiti

    towiti Kenkyuusei

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    Oh thank you! :D I'm not a journalist tho I do like writing. :D

    I avoid answering the question directly because I don't see myself as an authority in the field. I guess what I'm doing is largely restating the public's opinion rather than giving one of my own, in order to clarify the challenges we would face if we were to persuade them otherwise. One thing I'm quite certain about nowadays discussion is that people tend to ignore others' points but instead focus on ones of their own (ones that they are confident arguing over); so if we were to do this, we would need to prepare telling responses to at least, I think, the 3 problems I stated above. And frankly, I think it's impossible without an inherent change, politically and ideologically, either in the industry or within society, or both.
     
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  16. Conjyak

    Conjyak Kenkyuusei

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    Hmm, I don't think preppy fashion is either of those (though I may be completely wrong :p). I don't actually know what preppy fashion for girls would be :p, but Gossip Girl looks way more fashion forward/bold and adult-oriented - in fact it reminds me a lot of what Nogi girls sometimes wear on other shows when not wearing their uniforms, like this: http://nogizaka46democracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/11efc59abb5a6066bd8ca37c92ad261a.png

    The navy sailor-based school uniforms are just a fact of life in Japan like sneakers are a fact of life in the US, so I think what the Nogi designers do is to create something "on top" of the ubiquitous design of those uniforms, like with Kimi No Na Wa Kibou where they made everything longer, or Harujion where they added a vest, etc. So I'm wondering what people think of the design they add "on top" of what already exists. IMO, singles 1- 4, their uniforms were very typical. They just took trendy school uniforms/cosplay uniforms and then spruced them up a bit more for television. Starting from single 5 Kimi No Na Wa Kibou, IMHO they started to really create some stuff.


    :^^;: Thanks! :D

    That was an amazing explanation of their uniforms. Yeah, I feel like I've noticed a lot of those points subconsciously but obviously never knew them concretely. The puffiness to me gives it a bit of an old school look, combined with the more modern-looking colors/designs makes it look really interesting.

    I thought the shoes may be are these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Jane_(shoe)

    So another "classic" style touch.

    Just for reference: [​IMG]

    This, very much. For idols on TV, their uniforms are usually really understated, but there's a proper concept and coherence to it. Which is why I think even someone like me who knows nothing about fashion ends up liking them.

    My unpopular opinion repeated/emphasized: when I see them wearing their personal clothes, or non-uniform clothes on other TV shows, I feel very meh about those clothes. I prefer their official uniforms :p

    It really sounds like few people would get more out of a visit than you :D. I wish you could go just so I could read a description/explanation by you about those uniforms and costumes lol
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  17. Gofindnova

    Gofindnova Kenkyuusei

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    Preppy covers a wide range; frumpy girls with glasses and sweaters can also be preppy. Gossip Girl represents the highest end of the spectrum, since those are supposed to be characters who can throw unlimited money at clothing, but you can still see the technical elements like bows, skirts, collars. It’s not a perfect fit because the West doesn’t have the same uniform tradition as Japan.

    Nogi uniforms before #17 look to me like they fall within the natural range of variation for school uniform, although they are more colorful, better quality, and better designed.
    From these two links, Harujion is Eton Jacket style, Kibou is one-piece or Kobe style. I think real schools don’t want their uniforms to be trendy or attention-grabbing though, otherwise it’s distracting (and invites groping? lol).

    Btw, when I said “student cosplay,” I didn’t mean Nogi uniforms looked costume-y, I meant if you aren’t supposed to be a student (e.g. clearly older, or on a private trip, etc.), people would wonder why you’re dressed like a student. Even in Japan, student uniforms are for students, and I think most, but not all, Nogi uniforms wouldn’t pass for regular streetwear. There are subcultures that dress like high schoolers, but those are quirky and not actually common outside Shibuya. Some high schoolers even consider wearing uniform on holiday to be bad style or a sign of poverty, since it’s “work clothes.” But I’m sure many girls would be ecstatic to have uniforms as nice as Nogi’s, and wear them whenever possible.

    I actually also prefer #19 over most of the members’ private fashion. But I like a lot of conservative, comfy-looking clothes. My favorite thing I’ve ever seen a Nogi member wear might be Yoda with an oversize scarf covering half her head.
     
  18. ひめか

    ひめか Kenkyuusei

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    I’m realizing now that inoue sayuri is actually super pretty. Not sure if this is unpopular or not tbh.

    P.S. Sayuringo is still the prettiest girl in the group.
     
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  19. hiraganatwice

    hiraganatwice Kenkyuusei

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    7085DE83-A661-4D07-9E1D-55DE55F7EE61.jpeg

    Not an unpopular opinion as such but just a random wondering of why this candidate didn’t make it into Nogi
     
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  20. gish0046

    gish0046 Kenkyuusei

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    Feb 4, 2019
    Could be any number of reasons.

    She could be one of the 18 Sakamichi kenkyuusei.
    There could have been contractual problems (like what happened with Suzuki Mizuho).
    Management could have found something out about her that they didn't like (scandal like what happened with Harada Mayu).
    Etc.
     
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