[GENERAL] The Sakamichi Groups Thread

@Conjyak Imo, that's not a fair comparison. In fact, any comparisons between Keyaki and Nogi, especially on the subject of the status of individual members, are useless because they have such different group dynamics. Keyaki - their music, image, performances, concerts - has always revolved around one girl while Nogi had their screentime and activities more evenly distributed amongst their top members.

I love Neru and yes, she was an absolutely substantial member but her importance to Keyaki, the group, isn't really a metric that can be determined by her individual popularity. If you look at Keyaki's past music videos, Neru's screentime is usually on par with the other members (minuscule). If you look at Keyaki's group performances, can you find/see Neru for more than a few seconds? Same with their CD covers and group photoshoots, she was never given any more significance than the other members. Management did give Neru a push esp @ at the beginning of her career and plenty of solo opportunities with variety show appearances and solo songs but I don't think she was ever given a chance to shine within the group itself, unlike Nanamin who was permanent fukujin, someone you can always spot on stage and in videos, and an easily recognizable face of Nogi to the general public. You can say Neru was the second-most important member in Keyaki but can you really feel her absence from Keyaki's stages and concerts that were almost always completely dominated by the center and the center alone? I hate to say it, but Techi's importance to Keyaki dwarfed the importance of any other member in the group.

I think Neru's main contribution to Keyaki was her popularity, and she was important in that she brought her fans to the group. But just from my personal experience, Keyaki fandom has a lot of internal drama and conflict. I think many Neru fans, and likewise Sugai's, Risa's, and other popular members' fans, has some level of resentment toward Keyaki and paid less attention to the group as a whole due to the unfair distribution. So I don't think you can say a member is super important to a group just based on the number of individual fans because those fans might not even be fans of the group itself.

Also, Keyaki never had a Maiyan or a Nanase. I don't think Maiyan ever dominated her group's musicality, image, and stages to the point where Nogi became synonymous to Maiyan in the eyes of the general public. I heard of Nishino even before I heard of Maiyan, and there were definitely stages when Maiyan took a backseat to Naachan. There really isn't an established hierarchy in Keyaki in the context of member contribution/significance to the group because only Techi was given the opportunity to shine in group activities. That's partly why I think it's ridiculous when antis claim that 1ki members are inherently weak/useless compared to Techi; I mean, how can they even show their worth and value when they were never given that opportunity and even if they found individual success, they were never rewarded in the group setting.

I also really disagree with your speculations behind Neru's lack of a grand send-off. From Neru's interviews, you can tell that she always felt there was a clash between her image/self and that of Keyaki's. I think most of 1ki, aside from a select few, felt the same way but they got over it or graduated (like Zuumin who strongly didn't agree with Keyaki's direction). In a Keyakitte ep from way back, Neru implied that there was something she else she wanted to do than be a Keyaki member, probably pursuing a personal interest. There doesn't always need to be a clear-cut reason, idols are allowed to change their minds and seek a different career, and Neru always struck me as someone who had greater ambitions than being an idol in a group that she'd always be taking a backseat in. Her dissatisfaction with her career (if true) doesn't mean she disliked her group at all - we all know how close she was to Techi. Also, I never really trust the official explanations provided by management either since half the time they're just excuses, especially when members get kicked out.

And your reasoning would make way more sense if Keyaki always did grand send-offs for their grads and just skipped Neru's but that's not the case - they've never done graduation concerts, it's always been a quiet graduation for their members. I don't know if that's what the members themselves wanted or what management chose (we'll see if any of the Hinata members get one in the future) but that's always been the case with Keyaki. So it's laughable to me that you're suggesting the lack of a huge send-off indicates some kind of disharmony between Neru and the other members and/or management, especially since Neru herself did receive the best send-off compared to any other Keyaki grad so far.

That would've been interesting to see, but I honestly don't think management would've ever considered Neru as a backup center for Keyaki or attempted such a drastic image change for Keyaki, unless Techi graduated. If anything, Pon was the center substitute and back-up. Neru as Techi's rival for center is a fan-made and fan-favorite narrative but management made it pretty clear, especially with the 9th single senbatsu, that the center will only be Techi as long as she's in the group - no matter the individual popularity of other members, prospect of graduations, or the addition of new members. It just wasn't a fair system.

 

Wait, what are we arguing about? Neru a better member than Nanamin? Now this? I am confused...

I'm not sure if you've been paying attention, but Maiyan arguably is the most recognizable member of Nogizaka. That's a fact. Yeah, there are other important members, but Maiyan is Maiyan. Her style and beauty really is synonymous with Nogizaka. That's why Nogizaka is considered the beautiful, stylish group. The members also hint to the Maiyan's personality as
contributing to the Nogizaka atmosphere.

 

Why don't you read what you quoted and pay attention to that? Never said Maiyan wasn't the most recognizable member of the group, but that there are other easily recognizable members out there, Nishino definitely having been one of them.

And since you quoted it, are you saying that Maiyan always solely dominates Nogi's stages, music, and image? That she's never played secondary role in any of Nogi's songs? I guess to you, Kaerimichi is solely Maiyan's song, eh?

 

@keyak you said, "I don't think Maiyan ever dominated her group's musicality, image, and stages to the point where Nogi became synonymous to Maiyan in the eyes of the general public." And my response was that she was the most recognizable Nogi member to general public arguing the truth to the latter half of your statement. It can be argued, and that's what I am arguing, is that Maiyan is for all intents and purposes is representative of Nogizaka to the general public. I'm a Nishino partisan and I accept Maiyan's Ace status.

Obviously you can point to individual songs and shows to prove that Maiyan isn't always at the forefront. But that's known. That's a given. Nogizaka isn't dominated by one. (I love it when other members lead. I love Asuka as our current ace. I loved Suika. Ikuta is best girl!)

What I am arguing is that Maiyan's influence in Nogizaka is undeniable. Her beauty, style, and grace signifies the beauty, style, and grace of the group. The follow her lead. And obviously it isn't just her, but all the other oneesans - MaiMai, Nanamin, Ringo, etc. But each one mirrors Maiyan's. She's the exemplar of Nogizaka chic.

 

Hello, I'm a new user and I usually just lurk around but I thought I'll give my opinion on this.

I agree with @MasToppu that Neru was more important to Keyaki than Hashimoto was to Nogi simply because of the fact that Nogi had other giants in the group with the likes of Shirashi, Nishino, Ikuta, etc keeping Nogi afloat. I personally think that if Hirate was #1 than Neru was definitely #2. Losing Neru was a huge loss to the group because she had so many fans.

I agree with @keyak about individual fans potentially not being fans of the group, however I would argue that these said individual fans would have contributed significantly anyways because at the end of the day Neru was still a Keyaki member, and with the lack of individual activites due to Keyaki's system there wasn't really much choice for fans. I definitely don't like Keyaki's management strategy but I do think that Neru did the best she could with the limited resources, she was pretty damn popular (and rightfully so).

I personally think that Hashimoto was defintely top 3 in Nogi during her time as a member, especially at the end towards her graduation. Her being a perma-fukujin really speaks about the trust management has and her popularity. But relatively speaking I still believe that Neru's contribution was more significant because she was arguably the second most recognizable member, bringing in a ton of people to the group, some who might've become fans of her or another member. I would however agree with @keyak that the difference in management styles makes it hard to compare.

I also think that using Keyaki's grad send-offs isn't really fair because as @keyak said, grad send-offs in Keyaki were virtually non-existent, especially compared to Nogi.

Keyaki's system sucked because it wasn't sustainable. Having a perma-center was going to have problems eventually (even though I personally think Hirate deserved it) because egos will clash. Idols are still human, and as we have seen over these past couple of years, Keyaki is literally breaking down from the inside out, no one is happy. Reading recent interviews I have no reason to believe that Hirate wanted to be center forever, fans definitely didn't want it. The system caused unnecessary stress to the group; Hirate (who is graduating highschool JUST NOW) was, and still is receiving a ton of undeserving hate and the other members who didn't like where the direction of the group was going, friction was inevitable. This, I believe led to a ton of graduations. I believe rotating centers would've been the way to go.

edit: fixed some grammar mistakes

 

I don't have a computer to make a consistent opinion (with facts and not biases) but i am a fan of sakamichi from 2017 and Nanamin, if i recall correctly, was the girl with the most experience in the tv business, a lot more than the others(just read the Japanese wikipedias and you'll know), so she was a big face and ace of nogizaka, and if i try to compare with Neru, they have no similarities at all, but Neru was like a dear sister to keyaki, and in contrast that they are no more girls with standout personalities, then yes, they may be comparable.
Second, trying to compare all the ikkisei is like compare a bunch of types of fruits, there all have different flavors, and different cons at the same time, the ability from Maiyan is her ability to speak, Nishino and the other girls say the same thing, just watch koujichuu, and that is all, is just a normal idol-girl who is going to graduate soon, if you are going to say something please don't use biases and tell she is a gorgeous aphrodite that is superior all the other girls(its a example), in fact maybe she is one, but only for our eyes, and our eyes are not a serious point of fact.
This is all i can write in this small phone, so, good night guys, peace and love.

 

@keyak
Of course you can't directly compare members and groups qualitatively, and that's not my purpose. To spell it out completely, I'm comparing them from a business perspective, from a management perspective. From a business perspective, what was the importance of Neru to Keyaki versus the importance of Nanamin to Nogizaka. I think Neru's was greater, that's all. And why I want to look at it from that perspective is because it's management making the final decision over graduation events.

If the time that the camera shows a member in a MV corresponds to their position in the formation, then that goes back to what I said about Keyaki positioning, which is that it isn't as clear cut as Nogi positioning, since it feels like Nogi follows handshake sales popularity pretty closely. Although to be more accurate, early Nogi positioning also didn't follow handshake sales as closely as it did later. It was management doing some rotations and perhaps some experimentation, I imagine. Like Maiyan was in the 2nd row a few times in the very early Nogi era.

I think what's going on is that I'm trying to look at it from a more general and more variety perspective. To me, when management sends Neru alone on another show, that means she's important. Other than Hirate and Sugai, Neru was being pushed as the face of Keyaki. And her pb sales were on another level. You may be looking at it from more of a musical positioning perspective. That does mean that management may not think Neru is that important from their musical perspective, which is a valid point you make.

I would never and have never doubted that Hirate was the prime member when it comes to the music. But just because she dwarfs the others in the music aspect, that doesn't mean that the other aspects aren't important. I'll just say that Neru dwarfs the others in the popularity and variety aspect since her pb pwned all other Keyaki pbs (you know, I forgot to mention that that was her first pb. There is no first pb by a Nogi member that beats that.). But I never said Neru was more important or even tied with Hirate in importance. What I said is she's more important than Nanamin was to Nogizaka.

But I disagree the most with the part about Keyaki not having done grand send-offs for their graduates. I don't accept that as just the way Keyaki does things. I think there are specific reasons for it.

1. There haven't been many graduations yet since Keyaki is a younger group. So this actually goes both ways. It's not that Keyaki has just never done grand graduations (what you said) or that Keyaki should have done grand graduations when it didn't (what I said), it's more that Keyaki simply hadn't done many graduations at all when Neru graduated.

But 2. since IMO the graduations of Imaizumi and Neru have not been harmonious with management, that's why I think their graduations weren't as grand as they should have been. And I blame management for screwing things up or letting things get messed up to that point. Keyaki hadn't had many graduations before Neru, ok. But I don't feel the need to look at only previous Keyaki examples. I'll just look to graduations of Nogi and AKB and specifically, for the graduations of very important members (that's why I made the comparison of Neru to Nanamin). TBH, I don't know AKB graduations. I just know that Nogi graduations of important members have been grand for reasons that make sense, or their grand-ness matches how important the member was to Nogi.

3. Other graduations that followed Neru's that may have not been harmonious, same thing. When an important member graduates, that's a big deal for both fans, members, and management (in terms of both strategy and cold hard cash). So they gave Neru a graduation event, ok cool. Nothing for Nagasawa? (As far as we know so far. Maybe they will schedule one in the future, but let's say they don't.) Why? Just because? My belief is no, there are real reasons. And my belief is to look at management for those reasons.

I hold Sakamichi management to a very high standard because of the success of the groups and because of how well Nogi management seems to have done. Even if members have interests that seem to be outside of idol stuff, they try to cultivate it, like Marika's design stuff, Ikuchan's musicals (although that synergy isn't too hard), letting Chiichan and Renachi continue in good colleges, etc. Even if they do leave, make it a successful exit for all sides, members, fans, management, and the member leaving; and for a super important member, IMO that should translate to a grand send-off with a lot of positive activities (and opportunities for both management and the member leaving).

My real beef here is with management (or ownership). When something happens quietly and mysteriously to an extremely important member, I think that when people just say, "Oh, it was just the member's personal preference or the group's way of doing things, we'll never know," it gives too much of an advantage to management. It gives them too much power to sweep things under the rug. Because of course management has the advantage when it comes to hiding dirt. They edit every second of Keyakake, they proofread the blogs and mobile mail, they decide and design the events, the formations, the photobooks. Unless it's Shida Manaka who dgaf and tweets this when Hirate withdrew, most members and graduates aren't going to spill too many beans at least directly. So IMO, especially when it concerns important members, it's not what management and members say that points to dirt, it's what management and members don't say that points to dirt. Because they're obviously simply not going to say any real dirt to begin with. And if there isn't any dirt, with high standards for Sakamichi management, I would expect there to be lots of positive activities for all sides.

 

i don't know why you're so fixated with that tweet as a proof of shida being shady, she just tweeted "i didn't think it'd be so fast" in regards to the graduations and hirate leaving the group

 

@Conjyak
I agree with everything except your take on Keyaki's grad send-off. Quiet send-offs is Keyaki's thing because, historically, that's all we have seen from them. We don't know for certain what the relationship is like between management and grads, therefore we can't say for certain if the relationship aspect is the only factor, it can certainly affect it but we don't know how much. As far as we know, maybe the maybe the members themselves requested it, but we can't be certain, we can only speculate. The only concrete evidence are previous grads and we use them as examples, and as I mentioned above, Keyaki has quiet graduations, mostly being a small ceremony at the end of their show. Unless management changes it in the future, we can expect future graduations to be similar because while Keyaki is not an old group, they certainly aren't young, they were created in 2015.

I also don't think it's fair to compare Keyaki's send-offs to other groups because well, they're different groups with different management styles. Compared to Keyaki's management, AKB and Nogi's are far more competent in balancing, but they've also been around longer. It's true that the level of the send-off is related to the member's popularity/contributions but you can't use this to compare to Keyaki because of the difference in systems. Keyaki's music have so far centered around Hirate, while AKB and Nogi's are far more balanced. You can't have a grad concert for a member then have Hirate center all the A-sides/B-sides.

Regardiing your high standards on Sakamichi, I disagree because you're referring to Nogi LLC as the only example. Nogi is the first group under the umbrella that is Sakamichi and Keyaki was the second. The sample size is too small and Keyaki is managed by a different branch under Sony. Nogi LLC is the only one we have seen that has done a good job. You can argue about Hiragana but they were considered the unders of Keyaki and they also weren't treated too well. Hiragana's transition to Hinatazaka46 has yet to show us solid evidence that management (same as Keyaki as you probably already know) has done a good job as they've only been their own group for one year, and they only had one center so far (Kosaka).

I do agree that management is largely at fault here, they need to change and they need to change fast.

 

It's an example of a graduate spilling beans. The point isn't about Shida, it's about illustrating the circumstances in which this kind of thing may or may not happen. I'm repeating myself, but the point I'm making is that in most cases, you're unlikely to find anyone clearly saying any dirt. The only cases where that might happen are cases like Shida where I believe the exit was not harmonious and she doesn't feel the need to make nice with Seed & Flower. So she feels the freedom to tweet that (but even she deleted it soon after). In other cases, like Neru, where perhaps she still doesn't want to burn bridges with Seed & Flower, she's probably not going to say anything bad clearly. Instead, you have to read between the lines or even look at what she and management doesn't say or do to speculate what might have happened.

I stand by my opinion because it's still Sony and it's literally part of the same umbrella group of idol groups. The group is so successful that the only other standard you can apply to Keyaki is Nogi's standard. Or at least, Keyaki management should strive to be as good as Nogi's management. Anything less would be aiming too low.

 

@Conjyak
I agree that Keyaki's management should strive to be as good as Nogi's management, Nogi's management mistakes should've set an example. Seed&Flower failed where Nogi LLC succeeded. Ikoma was the center for the first 5 singles, before management finally swapped centers after fan backlash. Seed & Flower should've definitely seen this coming but they were so damn stubborn on making Hirate center until she was forced to withdraw. Probably because Keyaki was so successful; they had the record for highest debut single sales at the time, and Keyaki entering their 5th year is arguably more successful than Nogi entering their 5th year. They just couldn't adapt, at all.

I'm honestly confused on what Seed&Flower were thinking when they announced the senbatsu for the 9th single, were they hoping that everything would just go away if they ignore it?

 

Are you sure it was S&F who were responsible for perma-Hirate and not AkiP?

 

In my opinion, perhaps in the beginning but I doubt he had much say in the later singles.

 

I dont think keyakizaka in their 5 year is more popular than nogizaka in their 5th year. In 2016 nogizaka practically was the most popular female idol group in japan with several variety programs in tv , radio programs and many recognizable members for the general public.

 

^ Err, am i missing something but isn’t Keyaki celebrating their 4th anniversary soon?

@gish0046 I don’t anyone knows the answer to that but we’ll find out by watching Hinata’s, whose also under S&F, progress. I don’t AkiP has ever shown as much interest in Nao as he did in Techi. If Hinata remains perma-Nao for their entire second year as well, then I think we can start shooting stones at management. Already, fans are complaining about Nao’s reign when Hinata’s screentime distribution doesn’t seem nearly half as bad as Keyaki’s.

 

More Successful than Nogi on their 5th year . Really ???

I dont think the general public can name 5 members from Keyaki that aren't Hirate , Neru or Sugai.

And the circumstances are different imo,
Nogi started at a lower lvl than Keyaki that have started at a higher lvl .

And comparing Ikoma to Hirate isnt fair. Ikoma aint that popular with Nogi fans
And she isnt even the 1st choice center by Akip , that's Yoshimoto Ayaka .

But Keyaki should have used the fukujin merit based system from the beginning rather than that Communist style rotation.

 

@humbal @Halyup If you compare Keyaki now to Nogi in 2016, you can argue for both sides which is why I said arguably in my previous post. Keyaki has had several hits and their musical influence is very wide, but, as @humbal said, Nogi members were on many tv programs and were more recognizable. Also keep in mind that this was before Nogi's hugely popular hit singles Influencer and Synchronicity.

Edit: comments below

@Halyup were the circumstances really that different though? Nogi debuted during the peak of the idol boom with the title of "AKB's official rival" during the peak years of AKB. Keyaki similarily debuted as Nogi's official sister group. Both used their predecessor's success (nothing wrong with it, use what you got).

 

For this, I dare say the current trend within Keya fandom to downplay management, projected as sole party to be blamed for group mess, which I have my own opinion of, makes the strive even more lonelier. Anything they achieve for at least this year will be met with skepticism. And "as good as Nogi management" is probably still not enough to lift the stigma.

I'm confident its the latter. Saw this in AKB and SKE as two example where it's his decision to pinpoint someone as group spearhead during debut (I can show his interview together with his reasoning in all 2 group+ Keya history). If this was S&F only decision, those two group will not have perma-center impression in their golden era.

 

I'm confused, was my comment deleted?
This is just me rewriting what I typed earlier.

@Halyup I personally don't believe in directly comparing 2 members but my point in comparing Ikoma and Hirate was in the sense of centering consecutive singles and the fan backlash due to it, regardless of popularity. This is starting to happen to Kosaka. Also I don't believe being Aki-p's favourite has anything to do with fan backlash. I'm not hating on anyone.

I agree with you that Keyaki should adopt Nogi's system.

Edit: below

@keyak my mistake, Keyaki was created in 2015 but debuted in 2016.
But my point still stands, if anything it further strengthens it. (not directed at you but just a correction to my post)

 

Yes, I think it is important a change in the center position so nao can rest of the pression and because there are several members with the capacity and popularity to be center and i think they will do the change. but the situation is different in hinatazaka. Nao is not the center in all the b sides, the songs and choreography dont revolve around her, katoshi and kyoko are in the same level of nao, practically with a fixed position in the first row. there are members who are having many individual opportunities in radio programs, solo covers in magazines and appearances in popular variety programs. They have interesting projects like Hinatazaka46 desu. Chotto ii desu ka? In where they interviews other celebrities and their own radio program , hinatazaka no hi. Projects that will allow the members to grow up and got more confidence .

But still i dont think they have reached the popularity and development of nogizaka at that time.