Japanese Idol Fined 650,000 yen for breaking love ban rule. Should AKB48 worry?

I guess the best example I can put it in that makes sense to me (actually, this is probably a bad example lol):
Imagine for a university professor (male or female), it may be an unwritten (or specifically written) rule to not date a student at your university, even if they are not in your class. Both professor and student are adults, both can fall in love or just want to have sex or whatever. Based on your interpretation of human rights, legally the university can do nothing. Now I'm sure it happens a lot that professors at universities do have intimate relations with a student, or more than one. And since they keep it secret, nobody says anything. But if it becomes public, then the university would probably punish them. Probably because there would be an outcry against the university, as parents/students would see the professor as being wrong. But either way, they are just both consenting adults who fell in love or wanted to f•ck.

Actually, I really don't care if they do have a relationship or not, but I do want them to keep it secret, because thats what is expected in their job. If they get caught, I'd rather they just come out and say sorry instead of lie and deny it and stuff, or just keep silent and pretend it never happened. I really don't care how many people they're secretly f•cking, as a fan I only really dislike them if they come out and try to lie to everybody, even though its so obvious (*cough* yukirin *cough* sayuri *cough*)

 

Actually, that is a good example. Both are of legal age and if both consented then there really is no problem per se. But as u have already stated, that would cause some issues. As far as I remember - at least where I'm from lol - Profs are allowed to date students, but not their own...so u can't date a prof in ur field, essentially. U can fuck a prof tho. I won't say how I know this, but u can without it being an too much of an issue. They can't forbid it from happening, but it's just a social no-no, since people would think (using me as an example) I got good marks for doing things with my prof. I don't see how an Idol dating...say another Idol/non-fan would really impact her job. Many Kpop idols are dating and they still do their jobs fine. My ultimate Kpop bias is Soyeon from T-ARA and she's had a boyfriend for 3 years now. Still, does her job perfectly....never misses an event or anything. So, I do think there are differences, but similarities too.

 

I think its because idols are different in Korea vs Japan. Korean idols are much more about music/dancing/dramas/variety than Japanese idols. The music and dance is more important than the member. But for Japanese idols, the main thing isn't the music, but the idol themselves (girl or guy). Especially for the super-wota (who pay the bills lol), they do have the fantasy that the idol is really like their pure/good image. Whether thats a good or bad thing, I think it would definitely affect a Japanese idol more than a Korean one. In the end though, to be an idol in Japan is about having a certain image, or playing a certain role. If you damage that image, you will lose fans. And in AKB's case, those crazy super-wota's are what push tens of thousands of votes come ssk time, and pay ~$10 for 8 seconds of a handshake, hundreds of times over again. And that's a lot of money to risk losing.

 

I just find people like Sasshi so unique. Maybe because it was a past event...but even looking at Minami...sure she lost some of her popularity, but she's still doing better than most girls lol. I do agree tho and I think I stated it earlier too that it's probably best they just don't date. I really am all for "doing as they please", but it really is just a matter of fact that Wota = $$ and pleasing the Wota is more important than your own selfish desire's essentially. I think Sayuri from Nogizaka is another example of taking it too far, but still doing alright and will probably be back on her feet in good time. The 48-family operates way differently than say H!P. I think they are a fun phenomena, the 48-family, and I will continue to watch over them~ lol

 

Nakki already passed judgement on this a long time ago.

http://akbtekijinseiron.tumblr.com/post/92927355377/

答えは憲法違反ではありません。憲法は個人ではなく国家権力を制約することが目的だからです。憲法とは国民の誰もが縛られる感覚があったので、衝撃的でした。自分なりの解釈もしました。恋愛禁止を課されていても、自分の意思で アイドルの仕事を選んでいることから憲法にも法律にも違反しない

The answer is, it's not anticonstitutional. The reason is that the aim of the constitution isn't to regulate the power of the individual, but the power of the state. Since I had the impression that every citizen of the country was bound by the constitution, it was quite startling. That's my own interpretation of it: even if I had the love ban imposed on me, it's because I chose the job of idol on my own free intention, so it's neither against the constitution nor against the law.​

And, I'm afraid for @Konno A. that is pretty much the only correct interpretation. Some people love to appeal to higher forms of the law like the constitution or the charter of human rights in order to make everything sound all the more dramatic, but don't fully know who these rules were written for.
I don't know about the constitutions of all the other nations, but in the case of Japan, it only exists to set a limit to what the government (in other words, Shinzo Abe & co.) can or should do when going about their own office duties, it doesn't say anything about what citizens are individually entitled to. This is the purpose of the civil code (minpou). In the case of the love ban, what certain law experts often bring up to claim it's illegal is the article 90 of the civil code, but even in this case its usage is sketchy because of the inherent vagueness of anything concerning a "public moral", to the point that invoking it might even become a double-edged sword.
For one thing, a one night stand at a love hotel with a fan (who might as well be a stranger) isn't exactly the paragon of wholesome, universally-approved love, no matter how hard one tries to twist it as a Romeo & Juliet situation, and (more importantly) carries the risk of causing a conflict of interests. There's a reason why even groups that generally don't care about enforcing renai kinshi, like Alice Juuban, still have a local rule about not getting in a relationship with either fans or the staff.

https://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/民法第90条
http://horitu-soudan.jp/column.php?cid=106

Even appealing to the charter of human rights is a malaproprism, I think.
The keyword here is "be deprived", not "choosing to deprive oneself of" (and still being able to get your "freedom" back as easily as you "deprived" yourself of).
Otherwise, choosing to sign a non-disclosure agreement and other written contracts where you promise not to publicly badmouth your own company while you're their employee could be pretty easy to misconstrue as a "limitation of one's freedom of expression", when in reality you just chose on your own free will to keep your mouth shut about certain matters and on certain conditions.
One thing is making the free choice of signing a written promise to not spread bad publicity regarding my company. Another thing is the state imposing on me not to say negative things about them or anything else, under threat of duress, which I didn't agree on.
The necessary characteristics of human rights violations is that they must be forcibly one-sided, non-negotiable and giving no choice to their "victims" but to accept them without escape. This actually explains why, contradicting the layman interpretation of it, international organizations like Amnesty International go after governments, high officers, police forces and other members of the state, rather than bossy Starbucks employers. It's not surprising: the state, the army and other government authorities are basically the only organs that are able to force down on their citizens an "unfair" decision, one-sidedly and without listening to their objections, and have the strenght and encompassing power necessary to ensure they'll obey to it.
As for any other lesser case, you can just choose not to agree on a mutual contract that doesn't fit your prospects, you can hand in your resignation at any time and the company is compelled to accept it, or you can appeal to a civil court to double check if their treatment is lawful (or call the police if you think you're being detained by your company).
Those are all options that a denial of human rights doesn't allow, since by definition it negates the presence of a freedom of choice, now does it?

 

What are you on about? I was just in Ikebukuro a few months ago and whenever i had to cross the street i waited till light was green or said walk as traffic was unfamiliar to me, but as it was more clear to some Ikebukuro natives whenever the road was clear they would Jaywalk across the road, this happened also in other parts of Tokyo as well as Kyoto and Fukouka. I've seen citizens be courteous to one another, but when it came to doing things beneficial to themselves despite the rules they still would break them walking on wrong sides talking on trains or buses, Japanese people are capable of breaking the rules and not giving one another flak about it if the rules are being restraining than useful to anyone. Plus you can't talk on phones in trains like literally you can't with all the tunnels you go through your connection will break very frequently that's why most people text anyway. Also there are many countries in the east that have very different mind flows from Japan, so why single Westerners out as being unable to understand such a lifestyle from my understanding half of Easterners barely get it either.

 

@mieniem

Im not on about anything. Im just posting my observations from living there. I don't know anything about other eastern countries because I've never lived in them (just visited China and Korea a couple times). I've only lived in japan, iran, and america. Those 3 countries are all so completely different than from each other, so I just posted my observations from them. I lived for 3 years in Japan, 1 year in Iran, and 20 some odd years in America. Everyone can have different experiences, but in my experiences that difference in culture/personality was the #1 thing that stood out to me. If I look back on my time in Japan, or if someone else asks me what it was like, that is the first thing I say because that stood out to me more than anything else. Of course, I'm not making blanket statements about life over there. Japanese people do bad things too, I'm not saying they are these amazing human beings that must be worshiped lol. If they didn't do bad things, nobody would ever get murdered, or robbed, or raped. No Japanese company would ever cheat its customers, their government would never lie, etc... Obviously that isn't true.

But for the most part, I've never seen a cleaner country, nor have I seen a country where people follow rules more than Japan. I saw one fight in 3 years over there. I saw someone get hit by a (slow) moving car, and both the person who got hit and the person who hit them apologized profusely to each other for what seemed like 3-4 minutes. I've seen people hold their table while they go to the bathroom in a busy fast food restaurant using their iPhone, with nobody else at the table. Multiple times. If you were drinking by yourself in a Starbucks in America or Canada, and you had to go take a piss, would you leave your brand new iPhone/iPad/laptop on the table just to hold your spot? I would never do that. In Japan? I did once, and nobody took it. I'd probably do it again. And I'd bet money that nobody would take it.

As for why I said westerners don't understand? I base that on what I read here and on other sites that talk about Japan. Not as much here, but anywhere else you look its pretty much filled with people that don't understand that fact. Because all these sites I read are in English, I obviously assume it is Westerners who don't understand that concept. Not only that, but it is not a stretch to say that Western cultures value individualism, while Eastern cultures value the group. This is obvious by just observing W vs. E culture, and you don't even have to live there to understand that. When I read Japanese netizen comments vs. netizen comments in English, the difference in what is debated, what is said, the important topics, and also what is "white-knighted", is huge. Thus, I made my comments.

About talking on phones in trains, you can very easily talk on them in trains, as they are almost all above ground, without really tunnels and such where you lose connection. And sometimes an asshole will be sitting there talking the entire ride, not giving one f•ck about the people next to him/her that were annoyed. But for subways, you are correct, you would lose connection too often that it wouldn't work.


tl;dr - I'm just saying my experiences... no reason to jump on me

 

I've left my laptop along with my phone as well as well as other things plenty of times at a busy fastfood place while being at a bathroom for more than 20 minutes at a booth almost everyday for months and never got anything taken from me (place to study for exams frequently) but the world isn't filled with thieves, still I and you should be more cautious and you don't really meet many people who steal things with the exception of one person i knew who became a cleptomaniac for a two months during the stressful periods of studying for exams. As for berating anyone who defends the girls rights to have a relationship despite a rule known to exist as being a white knight is as simple as devaluing anyone's argument who supports the rule over the right by listing them as a creepy wota. Honestly if there were needed to be a more fair arguement of this rule it would need to be between two people who aren't fans of Idols and have good understanding of both law and regulations as the arguement tends to detract from fans being biased or people simply justifying their arguement over social norms of where they are from. Neither is relevant in discussing if these are things to right or legal as there are many contradictions to such depictments.

 

Court ruling sparks online outcry after teen idol told to pay damages for dating

Spoiler

A recent Tokyo court ruling ordering a teen idol to pay damages for violating a “no dating” clause in her contract has spurred an online outcry, reigniting debate over an industry many say is rife with male-chauvinist views.

The Tokyo District Court on Sept. 18 ordered a 17-year-old former member of an unidentified idol group to pay her agency ¥650,000 in damages for going to a hotel with a male fan, in what it found to be a breach of her contract, which prohibited her from getting into a relationship. Her romance with the man surfaced in October 2013, three months after her six-member group debuted, forcing the band to subsequently disband, according to the ruling.

“With her being a female idol, the no-dating policy was necessary for her to win support from male fans,” presiding Judge Akitomo Kojima said.

The case highlighted anew the male-oriented norms long imposed on female idols in Japan, who are expected to maintain the veneer of purity and virginity to gain support from their fans.

In March 2013, AKB48 member Minami Minegishi shaved her head and posted a video on YouTube to apologize to fans for her “thoughtless” action of spending the night with boy band member Alan Shirahama.

Those who question such a trend, however, have taken to social media to decry the no dating policy and the ruling.

“How could the policy not be illegal in the first place? Not tolerating one’s romance is inhumane,” said Twitter user @sekido74.

“The fact that a ruling like this comes about explains why Japan is still recognized as a hub of sexual exploitation of teens,” said another, @DigitalMisaka.

Experts were divided over the latest ruling. “Banning employees from being in a relationship represents excessive control over their private lives and amounts to a human rights violation,” said Tokyo-based lawyer Kazuko Ito, who is also secretary-general of international organization Human Rights Now.

Such a policy breached the principle of what the law states is public order and morality and should have been judged null and void in the first place, Ito said.

However, Tokyo-based lawyer Yamato Sato, who often deals with entertainment industry cases, said the ruling was “understandable.” The way many “tarento” agencies saw it, he said, girls working for them were ultimately “commodities” whose value inevitably took a hit should they do something that antagonizes their male fans.

“Those agencies put an unimaginable amount of work and money into training and advertising the girls before they become popular,” Sato said.

“So if a girl’s dating of somebody prevented her agency from retrieving its initial investment in her and her group, I’d say it’s understandable that the court ruled in favor of the firm’s damages suit against her,” he said.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...ine-outcry-teen-idol-told-pay-damages-dating/

 

At the end of the day, the point I was trying to make which you completely glossed over in your first post was this:
If there is a written rule, or an unwritten rule, its much more likely to be followed within a group over there because of their culture. Nobody want's to be seen as the one that goes against the rule, thus maybe causing damage to the idol groups image or causing other group members to be uncomfortable/feel bad. If you really want to argue that Japanese people are just as individualistic as Western people, I have nothing else to say. They are famous for the way they act around others, and how they will do whatever in order to keep up the atmosphere. Especially with idols. Literally, I mean literally, that is their most famous personality trait (and maybe shyness too).

 

honestly, IDK lol. Idols' jobs should never be put into the law. I know I've said it a few times now, but I think it needs to be emphasized. It's too "tricky" for lack of better words. I definitely don't disagree, but I don't 100% agree either. U can fight it both ways and depending on the judge (or a jury) she could win or lose her case. It's really not a black or white situation and the more I read people's responses to this case the more I realize it's just so confusing to have this job in the first place. Judge's make mistakes all the time...they are human too, but I think this judge needs to dismiss himself or throw her case out (or one of my earlier options was to make her pay a quarter of the fine only...and of course nothing on her record). I like ur examples btw...made me really question this more cause you're right...she could have left anytime she wanted (Idols tend to have it in their contracts that they can leave as they please). But I also feel for the girl too...it's her dream and maybe this was the only contract she got. Benefit of the doubt? lol

Btw, do they really spend a lot of time training these idols? I always feel like they get added then 1-month later I see them debut lol. I could believe it for a big company like H!P and the 48-family...as they have a trainee-system, but I don't think this particular company was really "training" said girls. IDK, I would love to see the receipts lol. But I'm not surprised lawyers would be divided. I'm pretty sure I contradicted myself a few times now cause it's just a tricky-situation lol. But that judge is super shady. "Win the support of male-fans"? He sounds like someone whom is interested in idols, u know lol. Like, u should support a group or member cause u like them, not because they attract u (I know the "fantasy" aspect, but LBR...a lot of these girls are minors and "winning" male fans sounds so sketchy. He should dismiss himself for bias, honestly (of course debatable, as I think this is bias cause the judge already thinks as Idols as something to please the viewers, while I do not).

 

If Aki-P can make jokes about "scandals" on a radio show... I'm not worried about this "court decision" effecting the 48g.

 

Speaking of rules, other than the famous no dating rule, what other rules do idols have to adhere, i asked this cause the only time i hear fans call for a rather severe punishment is when controversies show that said member has been with a boy, (albeit there are the cases of underage drinking and smoking, but that's just due to it being illegal, not really sure if they actually made those rules for being an idol). I asked this cause i don't believe that the other rules haven't been broken it just that there has been no special attention ever given for it, so it makes me rather convinced that idols who break the no dating is not simply usually punished, because people who see them break a rule wish to see them punished for it, but rather out of a certain whistle blower mentality that has risen because of it.

 

Well I had read this in the Kinoshita Haruna thread a while back that she said herself before that she had not made it to senbatsu because of dyeing her hair, piercings, and her attitude towards rehearsals. Of course there's Momoka who has her hair dyed, but she's known to have got into some trouble as well. Kaori turned her 5 year+ stint as a kks into her gimmick, but (as you know) it was originally something done deliberately. Apparently dating was one of the infractions that some of the 8th gen were guilty of, but things like lateness to rehearsals and generally poor attitude were cited as well (though I'm not sure if an official statement was ever given about them)
I think there are many cases like this where girls are punished for things outside of being caught with boys, it's just not considered as much of a "scandal" and probably easier to keep on the down-low for obvious reasons.

That aside, personally, I don't know about it being a human rights violation and all of that... At the time the girl would have been around middle school age or just starting high school. Going to a hotel with male fans (basically strangers) sounds like a heavy acting out for that age and would definitely be bad for the groups image, even aside from the whole renai kinshi thing. Of course it sounds outrageous to sue her, I do think the costs is more aimed at her parents or benefactors.

 

With all due respect to Nakki, that is a rather short-sighted view. By the same logic, a person could sign away their rights as a human being by agreeing to be someone else's slave/sell their vital organs/other crazy things.

I am not going to discuss this topic much further, for lack of both patience and deep insights into the Japanese legal system. Though, admittedly, I am astounded to see such a sentence at all, I am not totally surprised. Now it remains to be seen if this will be appealed or not. In any case, Japan is not a Common Law Country, so one such decision is less groundbreaking than it would be in some other parts of the world.

 

Speaking as a Korean person, I can almost guarantee you that this is definitely NOT the case, lol

Such as?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

...not really....Kpop sell the boyfriend/girlfriend fantasy too. There are even groups named Boyfriends and Girlfriends (Gfriends) or idols that say "their fans are their boyfriends/girlfriends" like Super Junior did. Idols that have innocent image or say stuffs like i won't date until I'm XX age or I've never kisssed then get caught dating do get initial backlash for breaking that image or "lying" to fans.
Kpop fans also invest crap load of money and efforts into members like bulk buy 50+ copies for fansign lottery, sending EXO members mountains of birthday gifts including 6 Mac books, spend money sending lunchs to their film set, for fansite masters buying $1k+ DSLR cams for pics and flying to another countries to film their bias' concerts...then there's the blood letters....
Some idols have mentioned their companies have dating restriction on them, they're just more lowkey about it compare to J-ent that makes this more public. It's usually more common with newer groups to maintain their fanbase to keep that won. Even if there are some members dating like SNSD or T-ara they're all well known veteran acts anyway who fans have followed them for a long time so it's more likely for them to be ok with dating so it's different compare to rookie groups. They're also still only a few idols out of 50+ something groups/100+ idols that have not openly admit dating bc they're not willing to risk their fanbase

 

this topic was discussed in the recent "Wide na Show" (37:45-)

 

They're not lowkey at all - you get fined and charged for all your pre-debut (and post, even) expenses if/when you leave, if the group or product you're part of hasn't broke even by that point.

 

Lowkey as in nothing like citing scandal as reason for leaving, this lawsuit, or have a bald image girl etc.....i mean whatever rule, restrictions, and however they deal with the idol dating usually doesn't get reveal publicly.