TV / Radio Produce 48 (2018/06/15 - 2018/08/31)

who will decide the center ?

 

My wife (Filipina) and I started watching this show a couple weeks ago. Funny, because she refuses to enjoy the MNL48 show now that I've found it. but whatever. It's been very interesting to see an incredibly diverse group of girls being whittled down to basics. Girls with too much spirit are gone (Yamada Noe, Wang Ke). Girls with too much outward passion are gone. Girls who weren't Korean/Japanese were voted out as quickly as possible, it seems (not that I had any idea who that American name was?). But what about the first few weeks when girls who literally did nothing but cry or pout were voted top 10-20 (Chiba/Minami, love ya, but you wasted time those first episodes) and as soon as they started working their butt off they got voted off? Not that they deserved to stay after the first several weeks, but why weren't they voted out earlier? Why did they rank so high for so long?

It seems whoever is voting is voting in such a way that this group is going to become literally just another kpop group. I love me some kpop, don't get me wrong, and I love each new group and each new... oh whatever, nothing is new but I love it anyway. But why can't it be new? eh. People just wanted to see the Japanese girls that looked like Koreans or acted like Koreans. Then again, that means we ought to have more Koreans in the top 12 than Japanese, since Koreans have been expected to meet a standard for years whereas the Japanese girls are years into being subpar on the Kpop scale. Not disrespecting the Japanese girls because they have done the job they needed to do in their own industry and I quite enjoy it. This is just a different industry.

Still not sure why Sakura is still there. Her smile is broken and she (and Ka Eun) have basically been voted too high, in my opinion, for much of the competition. MNET is crappy at editing but their editing shows most of the other girls working harder.

All of these girls probably work harder than most of us, or even most people that most of us know or regularly communicate with. I am in no way trying to downplay their passion, zest, personality or skill. I am just saying that this grouping does not move the dial in any way towards a 48g; it seems headed squarely for kpop. Some of the Japanese girls just don't have the look to make kpop work. I feel like we're going to end up with a top 12 that is 80% based purely on zombie-voting fanclubs, 19% on not getting hate along the way and 1% on who is absolutely the best but I'm probably getting the zombie and talent parts backwards.

Also not saying that Noe or Minami are better than Ka Eun or Sakura, or that Chiba or Ke would have done a better job. I'm just saying this grouping is more Korean style and we had the chance to have a good balance but that's long gone.

And we saw approximately 5-10 minutes of "Daughter" Minami, if even that much. So like others have said, what MNET shows us is what MNET wants us to see and does not reflect an accurate truth. Also she's the last one who has an ounce of spirit, she probably won't last.

 

As I remember, last season both centers were chosen from their own teammate votes determined by strong stage presence, fitting to the concept, and well-round performance (They could not vote for themselves tho.) I would say the center spot is crucial this time since the previous two centers ended up in the final line-up.

 

Ahh, but it can be argued that this group IS something new. It's just not the new thing YOU are looking for.

I mean, I do understand you want a completely NEW AND DIFFERENT girl group, but there are other ways to do so than singing/dancing perfectly. All of the Top 20 girls have their own unique charm to give to the group, no matter how subtle their charms could be. It's even explained on the show: the Korean way of producing idols is different from the Japanese way.

In any medium of art, there are two ways to enjoy it: Subjectively and Objectively.
Objectively: You appreciate an artist's technical skills, like how people appreciate an idol nailing a high note perfectly
Subjectively: You appreciate what that artist's work means to you personally, like when people love how an idol's energy/smile is simply infectious
You can enjoy a work of art both Subjectively and Objectively, they are not mutually exclusive to each other. The Japanese and Korean idol cultures simply emphasize one over the other.

Finally, there is a thin line separating familiarity with novelty. If the group was too different from Kpop, then the public would dismiss it as alien to them. You need to introduce something new gradually, so you can allow the public to relate with the group over time. This could make the difference in having the group labelled as a 'gimmick' vs. a 'project'.

If you want a more familiar example: MNL48. As a Filipino I know this group has gotten a lot of criticism from the wider Philippine public because they never even heard of AKB48. Most Filipinos only know about Kpop and thus see MNL48 through the Kpop lens unfairly. A lot of Filipinos now are just writing off MNL48 as a gimmick and are not giving them a chance to shine.

I hope this helps you understand that these girls are more than what meets the eye.

 

Someone has a full HD wallpaper for my smart phone of these girls? Please PM me.

 

i have a strong feeling the final group is going to have more japanese girls than Mnet anticipated - j-trainees have been consistently knocking it out of the park in the live voting and with each text vote in the finale being worth 7 points, i can see all of the j-trainees getting a boost. If juri puts on a good performance, she might even be able to squeak into the top 12. as a matter of fact i just noticed that she's the only japanese girl outside of the top 12 right now, and looking at the rest of the trainees outside of the top 12 i don't think any of them really have enough one pick fans to get there.

Woollim and Starship fans are probably gonna throw their votes into Eunbi and Wonyoung and... hmmm. the only girls i can see making a miracle leap into the top 12 are haeyoon (vocals), minju (visuals), and yuri since all the idol school/fromis_9 fans can throw their weight behind her now.

 

Yes, the Korean way of producing idols is vastly different from the Japanese way. However, I was somewhat expecting "Produce 48" to have a passing resemblance to other 48 groups; or shall I say, perhaps, Crayon Pop with 12 members and a theatre? With the inclusion of 48g girls and involvement from Akps I was hoping to see a, well, "halo halo" of the two, since you're Filipino. I do not see that. I see an incredibly heavy focus on the Korean side of things and a complete disinterest in the Japanese side of things. That is unfortunate.

Annnnd I was looking forward to both. Trust me, some of these girls are a true delight, but we've lost most of the spirited girls which diminishes a lot of the options for subjective enjoyment. At this point I can subjectively "enjoy" the group as technical, or visual. Some of the girls still have great personalities that can tug at you, but we don't actually get to see that from MNET editing.

Hey I hope we can get there?

My wife told me she saw them once on It's Showtime! and immediately decided they were too whiny and decided she wasn't interested. I was just watching the third episode of MNL Online Update from way back in January and showed her (on a video chat, since she's there and I'm in the US ) some of the girls. She immediately liked a couple but then immediately refused to get interested and doesn't want me to "fall in love" with MNL48 girls but I've got full permission to "fall in love" with Produce 48 girls--cultural thing? However I think that the numbers they are putting up on YT and FB are proving that they are more popular than the criticism is suggesting. I think MNL48 in Manila is similar to the culture shock in Indonesia where JKT48 continues to do all right and also in China where they got to a point where they are so popular they have their own sister groups and broke away from "home base". Although that is likely due to these three countries not having the most desirable pop scene with a severe lack of real idol groups--a problem which is not the case in S.Korea. I do think, however, that with the focus of MNL48 being more cute/real and less big butt dancing or the sexual mentality of previous attempts at idol groups (of course the problem with calling them "idols" will keep a lot of people away as well), they are going to find themselves in a better position.

Oh I do believe many people got the wrong idea from my post. In the top 20 I have 9 of my personal favorites still in the running with several other very talented girls also in the top 20. However it's losses like Moe that strike me as a bit upsetting, and again the fact that Chiba, Minami and others made it so deep into the competition when they were emotional wrecks that put in little-to-no effort after the initial grading and reevaluation. I love them, by the way so don't mistake this, and I would have been voting for them both as much as possible, but that's the problem with fan voting. They didn't deserve to be there compared to some of the other girls who were working hard from the moment they arrived but lost spots because of girls who were too overwhelmed and emotionally lost.

As for that subjective enjoyment you're talking about? I can always subjectively enjoy Yabuki (she'd fit in SECRET) and Chae Yeon (A very strong leader, I think) but I'm fairly certain I'm about to lose, Juri, Yuri and Chae Won. I will always think Ka Eun is voted too high because of her After School activities and general working relationship with people in charge. I think the same of Sakura. Another Filipino term for you, I think Sakura is too plastic.

 

I personally would want 4 to 6 JTrainees in the final lineup and 6 to 8 Ktrainees. Ideally a 7K:5J ratio or somewhere along those lines...

 

Hi guys! I have been stalking this forum for a while and I really wanted to reply because I had trouble signing up with the CAPTCHA issue (the fix is to sign up through the forum app on a mobile device).

Unngoy, I can relate to the idea that we don't want "another K-POP group clone", for me, this is the ideal thought is to have a Japanese artist(s) debut in Korea as a Japanese artist. While TWICE may have Japanese members, they are still considered a K-POP group as a whole. I feel like this would create a big point of different in the K-POP world.

For example, Goto Maki (Morning Musume) made a small impact as a Japanese idol in Korea back around 2007 I believe. She even had two tracks recorded in Korean for her Korean fans. There were literally no one like her in Korea. This is the type of thing I'd love to see... so for me, Produce 48 is a great transition into a potential future sister group of AKB48 when they finally do a Seoul48 group to introduce Japanese Idol music into their culture.

As for the industry part... I feel like it's just the 48G that has this specific type of idol thing. I would love it if Produce 101 did a Japanese season in Japan with some Korean agencies and Japanese agencies like AVEX Idol Street, LDH (E-Girls), Hello! Project, Stardust Promotion, 48 G... etc) so they can see the diversity in Japanese Idols.

 

A question from someone who doesn't know anything about kpop trainees. I really came to like Yena, but there's a big chance she won't make it into the final group. Is there any way to follow her? Or will I just be lucky if she suddenly pops up somewhere sometime again?
Just asking because everyone is always acting as if the agencies are hiding their trainess in caves until they debut. And then too, only to let them out if they need to promote a new single.

 

Mnet uploaded 2 unaired videos

if the video does not show watch the video here

if the video does not show watch the video here

 

Having Erii and Minami ranking so high is the most AKB thing of every good AKB thing they can add to this show... I mean, the untrained underdog who work so hard and conquer the fans' hearts? If that isn't truly 48s feeling, I don't know what is it.

I frankly hope they aren't going to give the group a theater if that means they will have to work every freacking night without unders. It make little sense to me in general though. I doubt a ktrainees would have signed up for that, but I could be wrong.
I just want good songs, good promotion, good realitiies, and having the girls, whoever they ends to be, enjoy this.

@May48 I'm sure other can answer better than me to your question, but yeah, you grasped the situation. I'm not sure WHY korean market is like that, but there's the chance trainees wouldn't debut or, if a group debuts, of being disbanded bacause the results aren't what the agency expected from it.
So it's not that unusual to see people honestly worried when their faves are dropped.
Personally, I can't help but wonder if we'll ever see the CNC babies grow up. So much potential....

On the other hand, I've never seen any occidental group give so much to fans like TWICE does. Regardless of my preferences, those girls truly put a lot of content out and, most important, always put their fans on the first place.
Watching fromis_9 doing the same with a much smaller fanbase makes me think this is the direction most group will follow. Though I'm sure there're groups which agencies are more strict when it comes to sharing stuff.
But I don't know them... I just see people being angry about it

Edit: I just read Eunbi debuted, her group was disbanded and then went back as trainee for 5 years and now she got her chance because Woollim has no intention to make any group debut..... so I think this is the perfect example of why kpop fans are kinda worried when it comes to their bias trainees.

 

I’m a bit worried about Nako. Wondering if she might drop if voters have been pairing her with Sakura with the two votes and they decide to stick with Sakura when it goes to the one vote. However, I see how much people love Nako...so I’d like to think she’s developed a strong enough voting base to make it in there. If I were Hitomi, I’d definitely be a bit uncertain. Although she has been in the top 12 for the most part, it’s literally been at the 12 spot, if not 13. And you got fellow Team 8 member Miu who might be able to leech some votes from her.

The trainees with the least to worry about are Chaeyeon, Miyu, Miho, Gaeun, and a couple others like Hyewon and I think Wonyoung? Mnet did Chaeyeon a big favor with the feel good storyline about believing in herself and the trainers getting emotionally invested in her self-image as well, that probably punched her ticket into the final group. Of course, she put in some heavy lifting with her leadership. Assumed all those responsibilities, showed she was a fast learner, and even showcased some versatility and skill when she took care of her vocals with ease (even with a sore throat). Kinda feel the same way about how people view Miyu, Miho, and Gaeun (wanting to give them another shot in the limelight and whatnot). Mnet probably realizes that Miyu and Miho are going to debut and there’s really nothing that can be done about it. But, who knows, might as well do a little evil edit on them with Chaeyeon and Haeyoon, haha.

I hope Chowon can make it in, she’s like a Swiss Army knife. Dance, sing, rap, girl crush, no problem! If not, it’s be a bummer...talent ought to be rewarded.

Feel bad for Ahn Yujin, yet another victim in the overblown and toxic anti/hater war. At the elimination reveal, she looked like she knew that she’d reached the end of the line. Hopefully, she’s toned down her expectations and that’ll make her more relaxed and make her stand out more. I think they filmed the countdown performances after the rankings were released, and Yujin looked like she was on a mission. She looked good. Maybe she thought, “Screw those antis, I’m not going to change who I am. This is me, so deal with it!” Bounce back and debut, slay them all, you bad girl :O

 

Welcome! I had an old account that was lost some years ago around the same time the old Karaholics site was also having trouble (and I lost that account as well!). I had to register through Tapatalk, myself.

I was recently trying to figure out if I could think of any other groups that could be considered idols outside of Japan and Korea, and yes I know both have different concepts of what idols are. Certainly there are "idols" in the US, which I presume to be the pop sensations like Michael Jackson, Madonna, and more currently Britney Spears or Selena Gomez, etc. Groups, however, seem much less prevalent now than in the 90s in the US.. but I think we can easily look to a pair of imports; The Beatles and Spice Girls. Both of these groups were idols. The Beatles were more thought of as desired but the Spice Girls put on a positive image and also became idols -- a group young girls can look up to, somewhat. With that being said, I'm not familiar with the music industry in much of the world but I don't see many idol groups outside of Japan (#1), Korea (#2) and we've lost the idol group that I knew about in China (S.H.E.) but they've obviously been replaced, and then the English speaking idol groups I mentioned are no longer around.

Annnnnd they're gone. That's what I'm saying. The good parts of the Japanese idol industry are being voted out. I don't mean that the remaining Japanese girls aren't talented or they aren't "good", I mean they match Korean idol criteria more than Japanese idol criteria. I guess if I came into this with the understanding that it was going to be a strictly Kpop group with Japanese members that will perform in Japan and Korea then I wouldn't be disappointed that all the "Japanese" parts of the group are disappearing.

Ka Eun as well, no? She replaced Kahi in After School and then After School stopped performing.

Chaeyeon was always someone who showed she was capable, even when she didn't have that story line. I feel like she always had the talent and performed well, and even in the tiny clips early on she was always trying to be helpful to her teammates. However, I do want to show that this is how MNET are exerting some kind of control over who people like and who people don't like.

Also can you explain "evil edit"? I've seen it a few times but I am sure that what I'm thinking isn't entirely accurate.

 

So there are a few of things to be said here. Firstly, idols are all about image and marketing. The talent agencies want full and total control over that, especially during or after expensive years of investment. Smaller companies don't even let their groups use their phones as an extension of that. In South Korea celebrities are generally held to an unbelievable standard as public figures and assumed role models, so every public facing action they take is going to be scrutinized. And while SM has had a promotional platform for their promising trainees since 2013 in SM ROOKIES, I doubt they and YG with their penchant for the pop star mystique approach would be into having their future investments have their own unfiltered SNS output out there for people to make up their minds about in advance. You wanna sell the finished product after all.

Speaking of unfiltered, JYP's boy band 2PM was hit by this in 2010 when their leader Park Jaebum's (now going by Jay Park) old myspace conversations from his training period surfaced where he was calling Korea gay among other things. Apink's Eunji caught some flack for throwing a plastic bag out of her car window while streaming/filming a video. Literally nothing happened, but people were really going off on her asking what she would've done if the bag had blocked the view of another car causing a crash, etc, etc. While some people are just looking to relieve the stresses of their daily lives talking mess about celebrities who have what they don't, that kind of talk can easily sway the masses and poison the well for groups that haven't yet managed to establish themselves. And so, having free access to social media is a risk most companies aren't willing to take until there's solid proof of a fanbase. (And controlled access to social media is boring anyway, even if we get cute business selfies.)

But thankfully, some agencies do try the SNS approach to building fanbases. For Twice it's only a bonus that they act as candid as they do on V Live, but they can do almost whatever they want at this point.

EDIT:

The Evil Edit is when Mnet will spin their own tales out of nothing designed to sway your opinion about someone one way or another, depending on who you're rooting for. According to rapper and Show Me The Money participant Junoflo, Mnet would take a random clip of him looking pissed (frowning, hungry, tired) and edit it in as a reaction to another rapper spitting his verse well. That sort of editing is complete bs, but it creates tension and sells dramatic story lines that just aren't there in real life. A more common one would be Mnet liiiiiingering on Nako's pause after Yunjin asked to be main vocal again.
People call the opposite the Angel Edit. Basically the whole segment where even though the Japanese girls' interview cuts were the ones featured, the main subject was how amazing Chaeyeon was. Moe and Miu's screentime was basically there to build up Chaeyeon. Which is eh, it's not like she's not everything they say she is.

Edit 2: Angel edit, because the Korean for evil edit uses the word for devil (악마) so basically akuma/tenshi edits.

 

The good news is that people have wised up to Mnet's shady editing and they've eased up on the blatant false reaction shots this season. Both victims of the editing (yujin and yunjin) arguably gave Mnet the ammunition they needed - hence the phrase "they can't edit what you don't say". They tried it with miho and miyu and failed miserably lol

 

Wow! I didn't know it was that far..

Agreed. She is one of the girls who absolutely deserves a debut. And I think she would have been out had they not built her up to seem like the reality that she is. Also with so many participants it's hard to show much screen time at all for many in the first episodes (Vivian who? OH GIRL WITH NO SHOE!?). It's only in the last episode or two that we've been able to see nearly everyone for more than a few seconds.

Strangely, that's kind of why I am watching the MNL48 stuff. They--and omg Filipino TV--had an online update six days a week (I think?) and it ranged from 45 minutes to an hour per day. There were interviews with every girl. So far that's where I am at, the beginning stages, but that's something I really like. If I were able to see it from the beginning, I would at least be able to see every participant and their talents, skills, etc. Even now, I "liked" a video by one of the MNL48 girls and she sent 3 requests for me to like her official FB page while I slept. Fan engagement and, of course, trying to get those votes I guess? P48? We're at the whim's of the editing department in regards to the Korean trainees whereas there are hundreds upon thousands of videos available to witness many of the Japanese girls...especially in variety situations. I told my wife I really liked Iwatate Saho and she asked who it was...Youtube sent me directly to a high jump competition which I showed my wife. There's none of that for the Korean girls...

 

Most of the k trainees are trainees and so they don't have many videos. It's supposedly balanced out (as much as can be) by the fact that only koreans can vote. And I think mnl has little to do with produce so the mnl stuff is better discussed in the mnl subforum.

I think all girls in the top 20 and even top 30 deserve to debut except that certain roles have to be filled by certain trainees that can fill that role (vocals, dance, etc.)

I wouldn't count out yena or yuri now that they're the only yuehua and stone music trainee left. They probably had the worst 2-pick situation having 3 trainees each. Nako should be fine, she's actually number 7 without the bonuses. And it doesn't appear that she's the sakura 2-pick because of a "difference in opinion" between sakura and nako fans a few rounds back and the results support it as nako would have been higher if she was sakura's 2-pick. It's actually chaeyeon that appears to be sakura's 2-pick which explains the sudden upsurge although there were rumors that some sakura fans were also 2-picking miyu and/or park haeyeon.

 

Thanks! So with the whole "idol" concept, the definition is slightly different in Japan/Korea... and even then, idols from both countries are different.

But outside of Japan/Korea, I would say there are less "idols" out there nowadays as it's not trending to be such a thing. People nowadays would rather be known as an artist rather than a "product". I can name a lot, but I'd rather not stray too far from the topic of Produce 48.

With that said, I really hope for Miyu and Chowon to be in the final group!

 

Just a few days until the finale! An interesting stat that I wanted to share is that in the previous seasons the number of ranks that went in and out of top 12 between the two last episodes were three trainees in season one and just two trainees in season two. In season one, ranks 6, 7, and 8 were eliminated in the finale. In season two, ranks 5 and 7 (Kim Samuel and Kim Jonghyun) were eliminated.

So in two seasons, both rank 7 trainees were eliminated. This year's lucky number 7 is Nako lol